I have been very glad to read the many arguments against David Brooks’ column announcing the end of moral philosophy. My own problems with what seems like the cyclical and predictable tendency for new scientific discoveries to signal the end of other modalities of knowing are reasonably well documented on this site. Insofar as I tend to have a knee-jerk reaction to what I often can’t help but see as the aggressive imperial tendencies of some strong science proponents — somewhat ironically, it occurs to me that the most aggressive amongst the proponents are often not themselves members of the scientific community — that is not to say that I question the power of science’s explanatory model. It’s just to say that I think that as powerful as science happens to be that it has certain limits that ought not to crowd out other modalities of knowing. Mark had an excellent post on this point some time back when we were batting about the existence of God.
Wrote Mark,
Indeed, in insisting otherwise, both sides insure the continued conflation of science and religion, and both science and religion get demeaned in the process. For instance, when religion gets up in arms over the teaching of evolution in science class and demands that intelligent design theory be given equal time – also in science class – it must pretend to be something it is not, and was never intended to be. Religion is not science, and in attempting to gain acceptance as a science, it allows itself to be treated on the same terms as science. In other words, it begs to be treated as if it were falsifiable, when the entire point in faith is that it is something that is unfalsifiable. Worse, it forces religion to get tied up in arguments that have precious little to do with the elements of faith that are so very important: things like morality, conscience, meaning, etc. And so it loses the forest for the trees, to use a cliche.
But similarly, science demeans itself when it used as a proof of the non-existence of god. Science is not meant to provide unfalsifiable answers, nor is it intended to answer questions that can only admit of unfalsifiable answers. To do so is to turn the scientific method on its head. And in so doing, science demeans itself because it loses part of its very essence.
In all honesty, I think that my own cautionary tendencies around the reach of science are at least in part based on a cultural bug. Canada simply doesn’t house the same degree of religiosity as the US and so I don’t perceive myself to operate day-in-day-out within an environment that houses the same degree of antipathy towards science as many of our commenters here at the League do. To my own mind, and in the minds of most of those with whom I interact, the power and position of science in interpreting the world is largely unassailable, so the more pressing exercise is to stand up for those other, less buttressed but, I would argue, equally valuable modalities of knowing.
Post teaser: discussion of torture memos after the jump.
In that regard, John Schwenkler and hilzoy both performed thoughtful and insightful take downs of Brook’s assumptions around the process of moral reasoning.
Wrote John,
Even if we credit the emotions with the kind of role that Brooks follows Haidt and others in envisioning for them, that still leaves to be done all the work of systematizing all those axiomatic intuitions into a rationally cohesive structure; of working out the tensions, lacks, and – perhaps – outright contradictions among them; of developing a robust theoretical understanding of the good that respects those intuitions even as it moves beyond them toward an articulation of the deeper principles that make them true in the first place; and so on.
and hilzoy,
It’s one thing (and a very interesting thing) to ask: how, exactly, do we make moral decisions on the fly? But while that’s useful to moral philosophy in a number of ways, it is not directed at the questions moral philosophy tries to answer. Those questions include: which actions should we perform? What kinds of people should we try to be? What principles should we try to live by?
One reason to try to answer those questions is if you find yourself wondering: what, exactly, should I make of all those moral judgments I make every day? Are they just expressions of taste, or artifacts of my upbringing? Or could they be right or wrong? If they can, how exactly would one go about showing that they were? — You don’t have to be in doubt about your ordinary moral judgments to be interested in these questions; you just have to be curious about whether or not it’s possible to say more about them than: they’re the judgments I make.
But it was Razib Khan commenting on John’s original post who drilled down on my more pressing concern with this debate and the direction in which Brooks’ sought to take it. Khan wrote,
In short the more intelligent, for one, tend to be closer approximations to rational calculators than the less intelligent. My suspicion that only relatively modest plural moral structures are possible, as opposed to an integrated and coherent grand system, is due to the fact that I simply find it unlikely that most humans are have the intellectual disposition to engage in deep and concerted moral reasoning which involves more than a small number of propositions.
To which John responded,
Nevertheless, it still seems worth it to me for philosophy to try to work out maximally general theories when possible[.]
Which I think is exactly right. It seems as though we have largely turned away from that project, especially in the formulation of our collective question about “how we ought to live”. I’m not suggesting that it is obvious that such a project will be successful, nor that it will be easy (that seems to be the furthest thing from obvious). But I would offer that even the process of engaging in such a project holds the potential for great benefit.
I don’t necessarily think that it is the case that there was a point in time when ethics and moral discourse occupied a larger or more prominent space in public discourse, but it does seem to be the case that there has arisen an active mistrust and suspicion about any formulation/analysis that mentions morality. In large part I think that mistrust comes from the fact that discussions of morality have to a large degree become relegated to the sphere of the religiously minded. It seems increasingly that when one reads a moral formulation on a particular issue, that said formulation is predicated on some appeal to religious doctrine or a value based on the word of God. In a society that features the twin creep of both secularism and religious pluralism, such appeals are problematic for obvious reasons of competing and contradictory claims.
This needn’t necessarily be the case and while I’m not interested in sticking any rhetorical shivs in the formulation of morality based on religious reasoning, I do think it is important that we recognize that there is a rich tradition of moral calculus that doesn’t base the strength of its explanatory power on religiously focused premises.The contemporary challenge, it occurs to me, is that there is a general skepticism about what moral discourse stands to offer us in terms of providing final answers on a variety of topics. In short, there is widespread disenchantment with moral discourse because it strikes many as impossible for any such theorizing to provide absolute or final answers. Ergo, what’s the point?
In morality, as is the case for philosophy in general, there is great value in the act of asking the questions even if no answers immediately arise. We benefit as a whole by cultivating a public and political culture where this kind of grand synthesizing and systematizing is seen not only as worthwhile, but, one step further, as something that ought not to illicit a knee-jerk suspicion. While we might not immediately, or ever, come to any firm and definitive conclusions about any variety of issues, we do further sharpen our capabilities around moral reasoning and bring to light a important and useful insights and arguments about ethical issues that will impact our thinking on and understanding of those issues. Unlike Razib, I am inclined to see moral reasoning as a muscle we can exercise and therefore stengthen over time. However, if we choose to take Razib’s position that such discourse is beyond the abilities of most, then we resign our collective public discourse to an exercise of largely pragmatics and that dulling of moral analysis only becomes more deeply entrenched than it already is. Our muscle will shrink and atrophy over time if it isn’t used.
This correspondingly strikes me as a major challenge facing liberalism as a force in the twenty-first century modernist (or as Chris often likes to note: (post)modernist) malaise. A sizable chunk of liberal analysis about a variety of issues seems to be fundamentally resting on an appeal to pragmatism that actively turns away from making moral claims about the rightness of certain courses of actions. It is not surprising then that Barack Obama exhibits an almost obsessive focus on enacting reforms that have primarily to do with “what works”, this attitude is a natural outcome of the liberal abandonment of morality as a foundation of public policy.
And while it might be true that a shifting demographics in favour of outcomes that cotton to liberal perspective on the issues that make up the bedrock of the culture wars will inevitably win the day based on numbers alone, there will remain a discussion that needs to take place over a much longer period of time whose content is moral in basis. An underlying whispering prejudice will continue to undermine any substantial resolutions if the moral components of those issues continue to languish in disrepair. Whether one is talking about the question of abortion and woman’s right to choose what happens to her body, the legalization of same-sex marriage, or the disparity of wealth and income that currently exists between the few and the many, all of these issues require the explicit recapturing of moral language to realize any genuine entrenchment as social and cultural issues. An unwillingness to even attempt such a project will result in all too predictable loggerheads, at the end of the day.
In fact, we needn’t look any further than the recent release of previously classified memos on the use of enhanced interrogation techniques (aka torture) by the CIA to see how our skepticism around moral discourse has traumatic and destructive consequences. There are any number of pragmatic arguments that have been floated about why the use of such techniques was necessary and carried out.
But when push comes to shove, the ultimate argument against such actions is ethical in its origins: we ought not to torture other human beings regardless of the pragmatic considerations because doing so is an affront to human dignity. That the decisions to engage in those techniques went unchallenged by all but a small segment of the population is indicative of a fundamentally moral failing of the country as whole and can not be easily separated from the disinclination to place a moral discussion about what ought and ought not to be the case in a more prominent position when it comes to public life and national decision-making. It also, I believe, points to fundamental failing that occurs when we choose to regard morality as a one sided affair and a sphere of discourse that obtains only in conservative/religious circles.
On the face of it, it might seem easy to ignore the ramifications of this topic or any other of the ramifications from our generally one-sided and abusive relationship to moral reasoning, the average individual might ask, “Sure, but how does that impact my life?” But the consequences for the kind of moral failing as allowing an environment where a seemingly exemplary government like that of the United States uses torture techniques are perhaps all the more insidious in their subtley, eating away at both the foundations of the country’s way of life and its degree of legitimacy within the world at large. The impacts might not be obviously felt by the average individual in an immediate, but their diffusion is already being felt by the nation as a whole. Those impacts stand only to compund in an exponential manner over time.
In this regard, it seems more important than ever that we re-engage in a full-throated discourse of the moral implications of our decisions and an effort to articulate a robust moral picture for our lives as lived. Difficult or not, morality remains a cornerstone of our obligation in charting a path for ourselves both individually and as a whole.
Borat: “I do a picture, only small, of the Tishnik Masacre. Where many Uzbeks…crushed!”
Kindly Gray Hippie: “How did you feel when you drew this?”
Borat: “Very proud!”.
KGH: “I’m just listening with sadness…a little sadness for your people…?”
Borat: “Yes…no, it is not sad. It is us who do the kill!”
When in doubt,
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That the decisions to engage in those techniques went unchallenged by all but a small segment of the population is indicative of a fundamentally moral failing of the country as whole and can not be easily separated from the disinclination to place a moral discussion about what ought and ought not to be the case in a more prominent position when it comes to public life and national decision-making. It also, I believe, points to fundamental failing that occurs when we choose to regard morality as a one sided affair and a sphere of discourse that obtains only in conservative/religious circles.
Except somehow, the side that is the most willing to invoke moral arguments – the Christian right – were also some of the strongest supporters of torture. That seems to be less due to a lack of discussion of morality in politics and more due to people’s overwhelming willingness to turn morality on its head when that serves their political ends. For a lot of people I doubt the moral calculus of torture went beyond, “Bush is doing it, I support/trust Bush, therefore it’s okay.”
Katherine, we’re in complete agreement here.
Your point is precisely what that last sentence was designed (perhaps somewhat imperfectly) to highlight. My larger point with this post is that we need to cultivate a moral discourse that is an alternative to just the kind of dominance that the Christian right exerts over moral language.
I guess I would add that in my mind the kind of moralizing you reference in regards to supporting the use of torture seems to me fundamentally flawed and my concern is that there were only a relatively small segment of people who were voicing a moral outrage to the use of torture. Now, admittedly, those people came from both the left and right ends of the spectrum, but they also tended to be groups that occupy space within the so-called “fringe” of public and political discourse. They are not considered the mainstream, as it were.
I’m afraid I’m one of the unlucky ones that Razib refers to. It seems quite beyond me how we come to an understanding of the bare essentials of a proposed national morality when we combine Schiavo, torturing to death prisoners we have reason to fear might have been innocent, all the while making sure medical marijuana remains illegal. There might be hope of a more fractured regional morality, as certainly already exists…. beyond that, I have my doubts.
I’m beginning to suspect that a fractured regional morality is the way to go.
I’m no longer sure it’s a good idea for the US to, for example, “liberate” women in Afghanistan. Then I wonder about whether it’s a good idea to make sure some county in Texas does not put “evolution is just a theory!” stickers on textbooks… and wonder if that’s a good idea too.
“Let Afghanistan be Afghanistan, let Texas be Texas”, if you will.
Cascadian and Jaybird,
I hear where both of you are coming from and I don’t think your skepticism is unwarranted. My concern around dropping the project of trying to define a systematized conception of morality in favour of just fractured regional morality is that the logical conclusion of such a move is a regionalist relativism that functions in the same kind of corroding way as cultural relativism can. What I’m arguing in ths post is that even if we don’t expect that we will ever actually generate a perfectly functional grand system of morality, that the effort of doing so has benefits in and of itself.
To borrow from science, while physicists may never actually generate a Grand Unification Theory of physics, there are still a gret number of discoveries and jagged movements forward that result from the effort that make the effort worthwhile whether the end goal is ever ultimately realized or not. So too I would offer with morality.
My own belief is that our efforts in terms of moral reasoning will look to discover some relational properties, trends, or characteristics between those regional moralities that don’t fundamentally undermine those local mores, but also avoid the end result of a series of stand alone moral islands. Call this an intersubjective conception of morality, if you will.
Science has its limits. Swedenborg had his problems.
Perhaps, I’m just a relativist, but I believe that morality requires a community. It may be that regional moralities show the limits to the size of the community.
Now, we may still be able to have a discussion between communities. We can engage the Afghans or the Texans but trying to create a common compromised law that is enforced by a third party is just begging for trouble.
Cas, you may be, but my experience is that the class ‘o folks who are true relativists is vanishingly small.
A simple test should suffice, does the fact that George W. Bush may be able to articulate a justification for his administration’s decision to torture detainees on his professed Evangelical beliefs make the act of having tortured detainees not or less wrong (assuming you take the torture of detainees by the US government to be morally unacceptable in the first place)?
Re: community, I think you may be correct insofar as we tend to conceptualize and understand morality without references to a Leviathan like God. But my point here in the comments is that those discussion may allow us to bootstrap a functional general theory of morality together, or at least give us the outlines of such theory that doesn’t visit violence upon the integrity of those communities – thereby extending the range of our moral compass. My general point in the post is that even if our discussion of a morality that extends beyond our chosen communities does not in the end materialize in a fully realized theory, that the activity of having the discussion is both useful and important.
The class of “true relativists” may be vanishingly small… but the group of people who say that we don’t have the “right” to tell Afghanis to educate women and that we have a “responsibility” to make sure that children in Texas learn a sticker-free version of evolution in biology class is not.
And, as one of those people who would make the opposite determination if forced to choose one, I’m kinda skeptical of that (sadly not vanishingly small) group of people.
Scott wrote: A sizable chunk of liberal analysis about a variety of issues seems to be fundamentally resting on an appeal to pragmatism that actively turns away from making moral claims about the rightness of certain courses of actions. It is not surprising then that Barack Obama exhibits an almost obsessive focus on enacting reforms that have primarily to do with “what works”, this attitude is a natural outcome of the liberal abandonment of morality as a foundation of public policy.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that “liberals” have “abandoned” morality as a foundational referent for proposed reforms because they have come to reject morals-based thinking/discussion — either because of some sort of po-mo thing that views “morals” as something too flimsy or contingent to serve as an adequate basis for policy, or because “morals” has somehow become equated with “Religious Right” and is therefore automatically suspect. And in place of “what’s right” “liberals” have substituted “what works”.
Perhaps “liberals” of recent vintage tend to focus in the public arena on “what works”. But I don’t think “liberals” have abandoned moral assessments as a key aspect of their thinking about either which policy areas should be prioritized or, as among different policy responses, which should be preferred — at least discussions within the provinces of the “left” or, on civil liberities issues, among allies on the libertarianish “left” and “right”. I think the focus on “what works” is a consequence of finding that overt appeals to moral arguments “don’t work” in the realm of public discourse in this country. And this, for a couple of reasons.
First, their opponents are totally dismissive of moral arguments outside the culture-war frame. “Bleeding heart liberals” is just the mildest form of contumely that has for decades been dumped like a load of manure on the head of anyone who wants to talk about (fundamentally conservative, small “c”, liberal, small “l”) issues like “just wars” or habeas corpus or torture. Like Pavlov’s dog, if you’ve been the dumpee long enough, you learn to modify your behavior in ways that increases the likellihood of rewards (that is, increases the likelihood that your message might have a chance to cut through the noise machine).
The second thing that militates against openly engaging in a discussion of moral issues is that there’s no good-faith space for that discussion to happen. You can’t explore the moral dimensions of a problem if the other discussant’s response is simply “I’m right, the Bible tells me so.” Or if, wrapping the mantle of “moral clarity” around her, she claims to be able to discern what is “evil”, that there’s no trucking with it, and that the only “moral” response is to eliminate it (and the persons, of course, who embody evil). So if by attempting to engage in a morally-oriented discourse, you become the recipient of “Talk to the hand” or a candidate for marginalization in what is deemed by our media to be socially legitmate discussion space, it’s pretty unlikely you’re going to return to that particular moral debating society.
When I hear someone start to expound on “moral clarity,” a decade or so of experience has taught me to look immediately for the nasty stuff that some smug, sanctimonious charlatan is peddling. Talk about destroying one’s own brand! And of course, the Right doesn’t have a monopoly on smug, sanctimonious charlatans. And so we’ve collectively produced, in moral discourse, a dialogue des sourdes.
Obama’s focus on “what works” isn’t a value-free exercise. What he’s trying to do — and we’ll have to see whether he succeeds — is to articulate and appeal to values that are shared across groups that have come to define themselves in opposition to each other, that opposition often being defined, or at least intensified, by conflicting understandings of “morality”.
Let’s take health care. Large portions of the population agree that in a wealthy, advanced society like the US, citizens should have access to health care that is sufficiently affordable that paying for it (or trying to insure for it) doesn’t come to dominate the daily decisions families and businesses make. Large portions of the citizenry have come to believe that the current system is failing us as a society, as individuals, and as productive businesses. Now, let’s look at what principles we should include in our attempts to reform the system — such as that it works, at least to some extent, for various groups with different or even competing interests. From principles, the discussion then moves forward with various options, focusing on “what works” to optimize the principles we’ve adopted. And in examining the choices among “what works”, Obama isn’t looking for the perfect. He always tries to find institutional continuities that can be built upon — whether existing institutions or models from our history or even exemplars from widely-shared cultural referents like scripture — that suggest what might work best in the unique political economy of the US.
Now, every stage in this discussion could be framed in moral terms. Or in “rights” terms. But aside from appealing to a sub-set of the citizens who share the overall objectives of reform, how would casting the search for effective reforms as a moral discussion help achieve the widely-shared objective? A discussion framed in moral terms may even harm the chances of achieving the goals because it may reinvigorate the structural opposition of groups that make up this larger group that share values but not culturally-defined “morals”.
By getting an agreement, first, on shared values and objectives, the onus then falls on those who oppose Obama’s proposals for “what works” to come up with alternatives “that work” to move us significantly down the road toward our objectives in a way that’s consonant with the values that are widely shared and our unique political economy, including our institutional heritage/baggage. This is his basic pattern that can be seen in each of the priority areas he’s focused on, whether health care or energy/environment or education or, somewhat less explictly, torture or Afghanistan. It actually creates a very large space for different policy approaches to emerge, but his opponents on the Right are for the most part trashing the opportunity he’s offered to them.
Now, is this focus on pragmatism in discourse an abandonment of moral thinking or reasoning? I don’t think so at all. It’s certainly not “value-free,” because values are explicitly made the foundation of priority-setting and a standard against which “what works” has to be measured.
But I’d also argue that, if one believes that health care reform or slowing climate change or stopping torture are moral imperatives, then it is morally sound to select the most effective tools to achieve those goals. And if framing the debate in terms of “what works” is more persuasive to the larger audience one must convince, then “what works” works for me. It’s not as if a discourse of pragmatism rather than morals presents a morally difficult “ends vs means” conundrum. It may produce a second-best outcome — we might prefer to achieve morally-sound policy outcomes through an efficacious process of public moral reasoning. But achieving morally-sound reforms is sure a lot better than feeling superior in moral discourse while failing to achieve moral public ends.
W’s justification, and those who continue to support these policies, are much more foreign than wrong to me. I have no tools or desire for discussion. It would be similar to supporting female genital mutilation. What exactly do you say? Unless you want to use some force, at the end of the day all you can do is shake your head. I have no desire to use force nor do I want to start a discussion that implies in any way compromising my rights and freedoms with these kinds of people.
nadezhda, wow that’s a hell of a comment. Response to your very thoughtful offering forthcoming — likely tomorrow.
Cas, same goes for your latest.
Thanks for the great discussion folks.
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