Not long ago, I found myself in discussion with a friend over email about the potential of meaningful cross-ideological political coalitions.
The idea that political ideologies need to find ways of working together on different issues to achieve, in turns, the same and differing goals is, in many regards, as old as politics itself. Invariably, a Republican President will be forced to work with a liberal Congress. Canadian minority governments are increasingly common in part due to the coalition building and cooperation they require. And within particular political parties, there always exist certain strains that need to be harmonized in some fashion or another.
But more than just the traditional trappings of political bric-a-brac, there seem to be people looking for more unconventional ways of building such coalitions. Bringing together people who seem worlds apart in their views.
Specifically, the discussion I was in sought to look at the possibility of a reinvigorated fusion between American liberalism and libertarianism in the form of a portmanteau known as: liberaltarianism.
As many of you will know, liberaltarianism was first introduced in June 2006 by Markos Moulitsas of Daily Kos, one of the Internet’s most widely read progressive blogs, when he wrote about his appreciation and admiration for what he described as “libertarian democrats”. Moulitsas wrote,
The core Democratic values of fairness, opportunity, and investing in our nation and people very much speak to the concept of personal liberties — an open society where success is predicated on the merit of our ideas and efforts, unduly burdened by the government, corporate America, or other individuals. And rather than always get in the way, government can facilitate this.
Of course, this also means that government isn’t always the solution to the nation’s problems. There are times when business-government partnerships can be extremely effective (such as job retraining efforts for displaced workers). There are times when government really should butt out (like a great deal of small-business regulation). Our first proposed solution to a problem facing our nation shouldn’t be more regulation, more government programs, more bureaucracy.
The key here isn’t universal liberty from government intrusion, but policies that maximize individual freedom, and who can protect those individual freedoms best from those who would infringe.
Coining the actual term some months later in a post entitled Liberaltarians, Vice President for Research at The Cato Institute, Brink Lindsey wrote,
But the real problem with our politics today is that the prevailing ideological categories are intellectually exhausted. Conservatism has risen to power only to become squalid and corrupt, a Nixonian mélange of pandering to populist prejudices and distributing patronage to well-off cronies and Red Team constituencies. Liberalism, meanwhile, has never recovered from its fall from grace in the mid-’60s. Ever since, it has lacked the vitality to do more than check conservative excesses–and obstruct legitimate, conservative-led progress. As a governing philosophy, liberalism has been moribund: When Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton managed to win the White House, they did so only by successfully avoiding the liberal stigma.
Today’s ideological turmoil, however, has created an opening for ideological renewal–specifically, liberalism’s renewal as a vital governing philosophy. A refashioned liberalism that incorporated key libertarian concerns and insights could make possible a truly progressive politics once again–not progressive in the sense of hewing to a particular set of preexisting left-wing commitments, but rather in the sense of attuning itself to the objective dynamics of U.S. social development. In other words, a politics that joins together under one banner the causes of both cultural and economic progress.
Of course, four years after Moulitsas wrote his post, we know that a joining together under one banner did not happen. Indeed, as Republicans and conservatives largely descend into greater and more intensely vitriolic witch hunting and Democrats demonstrate a seeming unwillingness to cut to the real issues facing the country, waiving off anyone and everyone who might dare to offer criticism to that effect, the chasms undergirding partisan rancor seem deeper and wider than ever.
In September 2009, Michael C. Moynihan trumpeted the “end of liberaltarianism,” under the Obama administration in the quintessential libertarian blog, Reason’s Hit and Run.
But need this be the case?
By my lights, the seeming death of political coalitions is less a function of their impossibility as it is an overly simplistic view of how they might work. That is, such an understanding seems stuck in a theoretical cul de sac of impractical and unlikely friendship and an unfounded belief in coalitions drawn along the axes of single issues.
There are, more and more, fertile fields of convergence that, in themselves do not, perhaps, produce fully formed and durable political coalitions. These convergences do, however, offer us some novel and helpful ways of looking at our political interactions.
Take for example the interesting, though not often talked about convergence in regards to the place/importance of folk wisdom and tradition between more grounded conservatives and progressives. In terms of conservative representation, I’m thinking specifically of folks like the original “crunchy conservative” Rod Dreher and the whole Front Porch Republic crew with their respective localist flavours, focus on tradition, and more simple and sustainable ways of living. James Poulos and the postmodern conservatives with their philosophically dense political praxis and rejections of modernity on conservative grounds. And paleoconservative Daniel Larison who is an ardent and effective skewer of the myopic and intellectually bankrupt worldview of contemporary American movement conservatism.
All of these conservative strains occupy an interesting ground that butts up against some elements of progressives that draw on a more postmodernist/Foucauldian “excavation of local voices and knowledges” perspective vis-a-vis the ills of modernity and the necessary tonic of creating space for oppressed minorities (such as Salon’s Glenn Greenwald and the Fire Dog Lake crew)
This particular convergence is very much a sentiment of the X/Y cusp generation in its late twenties to early forties: that we have all benefited from the advances of modernity, but there is a need to pull back and rein in that sense of unbridled advance with an ounce or two of common sense.
You can see this in a rising tide of anti-consumerism and anti-corporatism, shifts towards slow cooking and whole/organic food preparation/consumption, many of the impulses driving environmental concerns, and even the music industry where a return to more gritty styles of rock ‘n roll embedded in the blues and country roots of the genre a la The White Stripes, The Vines, Fleet Foxes, and the re-emergence of musical dinosaurs like Bruce Springsteen. There seems to have been an aching for something that one can only describe as less plastic in the last few years. Something that feels less synthetic and more human.
I don’t think this convergence and others like it have been very well explored and it is, in many regards, a key to carving our a political path forward.
As an additional tributary, you also get a necessarily skeptical but not fatalist view of government that spills out of this inclination and finds a hook in point for more libertarian thinking. People understand that in some instances — like, say, health care reform — government is the best (and perhaps the only) means of achieving a certain set of goals in something approaching an equitable manner. Particularly when those goals — again, like universal health care — are quite large in nature.
But in utilizing government, there is also the recognition that, left unchecked, government will — just as many large corporations have — run rough shod over a whole swath of interests. A recently released video of a SWAT raid on a Columbia, Missouri home that has sparked much debate about the mindless continuation of the so-called “War on Drugs” and its unintended consequences is a good example of government destructiveness.
And so there is a hedged bet going on: we’ll use government to achieve this end, which we think is important, but we’re going to keep a watchful eye towards overreach and excesses because we don’t entirely trust government to restrain itself and keep from treading over the needs of unintended victims.
I know that the general assumption about progressives is that they are wholesale government-lovers, but Moulitsas’ 2006 missive proves that this is not entirely accurate. As Moulitsas gestures towards, a lot of progressives look at government as a means to an end in an increasingly corportized world. And perhaps the only really effective means to certain worthwhile ends. This political calculus belies a much more nuanced analysis than is often extended to progressives. In the blogosphere, Glenn Greenwald’s brand of highly intellectual and fiercely critical (of both parties) liberalism is the epitome of this kind of sensibility.
And so you can look to formulate something that is regionally specific. A formulation that speaks to the particular dynamics of a given country so as not to fall into the cookie-cutter approach of previously envisioned coalitions such as the liberaltarianism mentioned at the beginning of this piece.
If we look at this from an American frame, the heavy influence of libertarian skepticism is very much an Americantrait and it ought to be leveraged to maximum advantage. But not in a dogmatic or willfully ignorant fashion.
And in this regard, the overwhelming size of the country becomes a help, not a hindrance. This kind of pushing back against an over extension of government, a holding in check to ensure that there is a sort of balance between the collective needs and individual rights/liberties, is something that requires a good showing numbers wise. Otherwise the threat is empty.
This is, at least in part, why I remain somewhat hesitant to write off the tea partiers. I disagree with them almost 100% and I find a lot of their actions to be immature and ill-advised, but I can see how their ferocity could be useful moving forward. In some senses, we all need that fire in our belly, just better directed and more finely honed.
In addition to understanding that in a twenty-first century context durable political coalitions are unlikely to fall along single-issue axes, the other thing to grasp is that we need not be friends or unite ourselves under a single banner of common cause. Indeed, some of the most effective coalitions could be built upon conflicting interests and ideas. Relationships of animosity, of effective checks and balances against the most common of our ideological blind spots are, perhaps, where we ought to be looking for opportunities, in addition to our various convergences.
Of course, a common rejoinder to such suggestions is to argue that to be effective in affecting political discourse, one needs to belong to a certain team. One has to have team members with which one does take up some degree of common cause. This kind of broad political patch-working that I describe seems to suggest that one must become a political nomad — a vagrant interloper.
The idea of needing a team isn’t something that, admittedly, speaks very strongly to me personally. I have, in the last little while, found the most interesting political spaces to be interstitial — by which I mean intellectual and political space in between given ideologies rather than firmly within them. But I understand why this is a pressing issue.
My response would be that there’s nothing saying that you couldn’t do what I’m suggesting from a particular team. In fact, given current circumstances, you probably couldn’t do what I’ve suggested without some kind of grounding in a particular ideological persuasion. To affect political discourse requires a certain legitimacy. And presently that legitimacy is primarily derived — rightly or wrongly — from membership within a given team. But what it is that you try to do through and from that team is, to my mind, what really matters.
I would offer that there are a whole host of dissident conservatives who are making efforts that at least head in a direction that is at least somewhat akin to what I’m describing. But each in his own way has come to a certain grips with the idea that what it means to be conservative isn’t a static monolithic entity. And so each in their own way are working to generate what strikes them as a more constructive kind of conservatism
Here I’m thinking of people like David Frum, Bruce Bartlett, Andrew Sullivan, Charles Johnson, Conor Friedersdorf, and Daniel Larison
But in so doing, I think two things become pretty clear.
First, they are seeking out and fostering ideological and political coalitions that transgress certain accepted norms and expectations about how you work with and how. Sullivan, Bartlett, Johnson, and Friedersdorf probably have more allies among liberals and progressives than they do among conservatives. Conservatives see them as challenging orthodoxy and therefore, in some senses, heretical. Liberals appreciate their breaking the ranks and so are more inclined to meet them in the middle, so to speak.
There are both some strengths and some drawbacks to this.
One the one hand, it seems terribly important that members of particular teams be challenged in real and substantial ways. That is, to some degree, precisely what these kinds of reorientation are all about — breaking prescriptive and calcified lines of thought and belief sub-systems. In order to do that, you need to push pretty hard sometimes. That kind of pushing is, with the folks on the receiving end of your pushing, not going to exactly win you friends. But it is both important and, in many regards, necessary.
On the weaknesses side, I worry about the kinds of behavioral grooves that this kind of effort can develop in and of itself.
The point here isn’t simply to alienate everyone who identifies as “conservative”. The point, as I see it anyhow, is to shift the overall dynamics, whether you are talking about within the political process as a whole — as I’m inclined to do — or within a given ideological persuasion. It can be easy to get into this endlessly combative and confrontational relationship to the objects of one’s attention. And that kind of combativeness can come to exhibit decreasing degree of mindfulness.
One’s aim is to challenge, yes. But ultimately you want to bring people on board.
I worry at times about the potential for and the implications of this kind of knee-jerk combativeness. This is a not uncommon critique that each of Sullivan, Bartlett, Friedersdorf, and Johnson have lobbed against them.
There is speaking truth to power and then there is just looking for a fight. I worry that each of the four writers mentioned glance occasions where they’re doing not much more than looking for fights, though I’m overwhelmingly supportive of what they’re trying to do.
In this regard, Frum is much better in terms of trying to build a winning coalition of conservatives, but he also doesn’t push as hard as the others. Ross Douthat is another good example of the “softer touch”. So there’s always a trade off and knowing how to balance that trade off is a matter of developing and exercising the Mahayana Buddhist practice of upaya, or skillful means.
The other thing to note here is how isolated each of these individuals is within their team. Even Frum, who is perhaps the least challenging of those I’ve mentioned, is an apostate. Movement conservatives don’t consider any of Sullivan, Friedersdorf, Frum, Johnson, Larison or Bartlett to really be conservatives. Each of them would be torn to shreds at a Palin or a Tea Party rally. And most of them would probably be exposed to a distinct air of condescension and rebuke at any number of mainstream conservative events.
And so part of what we need to acknowledge here is that this is a likely outcome of any kind of effort of the type that I’m describing regardless of your ideological location. It is a natural reaction from people who are being challenged on their held beliefs. So if you’re search for a team is about a comfortable sense of acceptance, then you’d best be prepared to set aside most of your impulses towards challenging people and really trying to dig into problems in a way that moves things forward.
But, of course, then you wouldn’t really be addressing the whole issue that stoked this conversation. And so what would be the point?
So while it might be true that a simple coalition between liberals and libertarians in the form of liberaltarianism does not seem very likely, it remains true that there are many opportunities for useful political coalitions. In fact, one might argue that there exist more and greater opportunities than there ever have been before.
Looking at the recent British election is instructive in this regard.
After thirteen years in power, the centre-left, third way Labour Party was voted out in favour of the re-branded conservative Tory Party. However, the election resulted in a hung Parliament, meaning that the Tories, while they won the most seats, did not win enough seats to form a majority government. This necessitated a Tory search for a coalition government — a political coalition between the Tories and another political party to form a majority of seats in Parliament.
Instead of forming a coalition with Labour based along well established lines of broad agreement that had formed over the decades during which Labour and the Tories had oscillated between governing and opposition status, the Tories instead chose to form a coalition with the breakout Liberal Democrats. While also liberal in nature, the Lib Dems, as they are often called, follow a much more classically liberal strain of thought that focuses on preserving and advocating individual liberties in the lineage of John Stuart Mill and John Locke.
The move is somewhat controversial and has some members of the Lib Dem party reeling. But already there is a sense that these uncharted water could bring a much more productive relationship than would have following the tried, tested, and true pathways — precisely because it breaks with what we find familiar.
Ultimately time will tell.
However, the UK example demonstrates that it behooves us to reorient away from what really amount to immature and overly simplistic formulations of political coalitions. If political coalitions are to be a useful tool now and in the future, we must begin looking into more nuanced versions that ultimately require more of us, but stand to be much powerful and potentially sustainable.
Cross posted from Beams and Struts
Borat: “I do a picture, only small, of the Tishnik Masacre. Where many Uzbeks…crushed!”
Kindly Gray Hippie: “How did you feel when you drew this?”
Borat: “Very proud!”.
KGH: “I’m just listening with sadness…a little sadness for your people…?”
Borat: “Yes…no, it is not sad. It is us who do the kill!”
When in doubt,
{ 69 comments }
Power is about excluding others from it. Politics is about power.
I think the compulsion to name a coalition, liberaltarianism for example, is the exact hing that makes it unworkable. Coalition governing is much more effective when done on an issue-by-issue basis.
@Mike at The Big Stick, Yeah my thought was that I know plenty of people that the term might apply to, but they’re not the types who want a church to belong to.
@Rufus F.I just think it’s folly to create all of these intricate sub-labels to describe the complexity of most people’s political leanings. It’s why I think poor E.D. spends so much time coming up with creative labels for himself. Some kind of need to belong. The problem is that once you’ve tucked yourself into this neat little ideology you eventually find yourself taking positions you don’t really agree with because ‘that’s what [insert sub-label here] believe’.
Scott,
This is a very useful primer. I’m not sure about Foucaultian Progressives, but I came of age among a corner of the left that was about three inches shy of anarchism, so I’ve never really been close to the “statist left” of popular lore. Watching the porchers come to realizations that people I know came to decades ago is thrilling, but it makes the insistence I’ve read on their site that “progressives” are people who w-u-v the state convince me that some connections are being missed here.
@Rufus F., I’d also note that I’ve been basically ‘unaffiliated’ for the last 15 years or so, and so some things might have changed.
One very good way to make a coalition last for a good long while is for both members of the coalition to be good at the things the other member admires them for… you know, the things that made them think “well, maybe I could get into a coalition with these guys.”
“We know that we disagree on X, Y, and Z… but we agree on W. If we make major progress with W, you guys will hush up on X, Y, and Z… okay?”
So now I’d ask this:
Why should “Liberaltarians” be pleased with Obama and/or the Democrats? What is the “W” that should make Liberaltarians feel like some mission has been accomplished?
Are there listable reasons that would get the stereotypical liberaltarian to say “I voted D in 2006 and 2008 to vote the bums out… but in 2010, I’m voting D for a positive agenda!”?
Would such a list be more persuasive than “if you vote R, you can throw the bums out again”?
@Jaybird, Not much in the O man’s agenda that’d appeal to libertarians Jay, well except he’s still committed to extracting us from Iraq and he refuses to go to war with Iran but that’s pretty weak tea.
@North, this is the flip side to the questions Koz refuses to acknowledge as valid.
I’m down with voting bums out.
It might be interesting to vote *FOR* someone every once in a while.
@North, Yeah. It’s a damned shame (for many reasons) that he’s not serious about dismantling the Bush-Cheney national security state. The most that can be said is that he’s not building more of it. Again pretty weak tea, but it’s a huge contrast with, say, Mitt “Double Guantanamo!”.
@Mike Schilling, On that we sadly agree Mike.
@Jaybird, I suppose I’m as much a liberaltarian as anyone – had I been able to I would have voted for Obama in 2008. I hoped that he would roll back the civil liberties and prisoner-treatment violations we’ve saw previously. I’m pretty disappointed on that – it seems what he has tried to do, which isn’t much, hasn’t been that productive. I was also hoping for some of that ballyhooed bipartisanship – at the time it seemed like there was plenty of coalition-building space over healthcare, for instance, that turned out not to exist in any useful sense. I’m tempted to blame a lot of this on the scale of the Democratic majority in congress, but maybe that’s over-optimisitic – I still have a vague sense that at least some of our elected representatives are not stupid and that it therefore ought to be possible to assemble a majority in favour of civil liberties, decent treatment of prisoners and a better balanced healthcare reform, but I’m probably deluding myself.
Given the choice I’d look for a Republican majority in the house and a 50/50 split in the senate, although I’d have a pretty hard time voting for any of the actual Republicans who’ll be on the ballot in November – the pandering they have to engage in to win the primary turns my stomach.
I feel like we’re due a realignment of the electoral coalitions in US politics – it feels like neither fixed group of funders and supporters can move the country in a direction that would ultimately get the support even of many of those who didn’t vote for it, as happened under Reagan and under Clinton. The Democrats can’t afford to do anything that would annoy the unions or trial lawyers, but the things those groups want (card check, more regulation) won’t generally get support from everyone else. Healthcare reform was a chance for them to show effectiveness, and they only really get a D- – too much union influence, too much regulation, not enough clarity, and suicidally late to do anything useful (2014!).
The Republicans have essentially similar problems – they can’t increase taxes because it’ll annoy the anti-tax crowd, but they also can’t cut spending because the military and old people, on whom the money mostly goes, tend to vote Republican too. And they constantly have to pander to a socially conservative fundamentalist base that in poll after poll shows itself to be out of touch with the rest of the country. They had eight years to do something useful domestically and what happened? Oh, more money for old people’s healthcare and a bunch more to private health insurers. Great.
But I talk to people of all political persuasions all the time, and what strikes me most of all is the huge scope for agreement on specific concrete issues. Once you get people off the vague generalities about the horrific consequences of spending cuts for social programs, or the vast amounts of money spent on welfare for illegal immigrants, or the inevitable social collapse that will follow from allowing gays to marry and get onto concrete questions – whether overheads in social programs are in fact too high, who exactly should be entitled to what, whether gay couples should have hospital visitation rights and tax benefits – things get a lot more congenial and then there’s some actual scope for compromise. If someone could actually muster some imagination and run on a coherent reform platform that made it clear to people where the benefits were that they were getting in exchange for whatever they might lose, they might actually find compromise and coalition building a lot easer. But it seems no-one has the cojones to do it – instead we get pandering in the primaries and vague generalities in the general and oddly enough they can’t do anything useful once they get into power.
The contrast with the UK is educational here – because the governing coalition controls both the legislature and the executive, it can pass and execute more or less whatever legislation it wants, and won’t have t0 face an election for5 years, at least if all goes to plan. There’s therefore a lot more scope for the prime minister to say “trust me – I know what I’m doing” and get on with doing whatever that is. On this occasion because there’s a formal coalition government we have a lot more insight on precisely what they actually are going to do this time too. But because US politics is more democratic, it paradoxically relies more on leadership by someone with an actual plan – that currently seems to be lacking.
@Simon K, good point. I keep expecting the Republicans to shatter into two different parties and the Democrats to quickly shed 10-15% of their supporters to one or the other (now that there will be 3 parties, the ‘least odious’ will no longer necessarily be the Dems).
And it keeps not happening…
@Jaybird, I guess the thing is where exactly you’d drive the wedge into the Republican coalition for the two bits to both actively want the split. For example, a lot of more genuinely anti-statist Republicans were well and truly pissed with Bush, but it didn’t split the party because generally Libertarians know they can’t win elections of their own (sadly). And the social conservatives don’t leave because they know that on their own they could only win the South.
The one thing I supposed might happen is for the social conservatives and the less consistently libertarian anti-tax-but-really-only-my-taxes crowd to abandon the “mainstream” GOP and form a populist, anti-federalist, party of guns, states rights and low taxes. Some accounts of the Tea Party movement seem to have it going in that direction, although its hard to read and no doubt in reality contains a large number of different tendencies.
That would leave the old “mainstream” GOP stuck as a minority party in the mostly-Democratic NE and W, though, which I suppose is why they’re not actively trying to fight the Tea Partiers right now.
@Simon K, The split that makes the most sense to me would be between the Fiscons and the Socons… but, looking at the Tea Parties, I suspect that a more likely split would be between the Populists and the Establishments.
I read this on Henley’s today:
http://highclearing.com/index.php/archives/2010/06/13/11258
However, it is clear to me that the GOP ha not yet spent enough time in the wilderness to atone for 8 years of grave sins. In am ideal world both parties would lose, but in this world there can be only one loser. For now, I hope that loser is the GOP. And I hope that they spend their extended time in the wilderness cleansing themselves and finding a sane person who can some day pick yp the reins when Team Blue gets the defeat that it will richly deserve.
And after I stopped laughing, I was depressed, and after the depression lifted somewhat I found that I was holding an internal debate between gridlock and forcing the Republicans to, seriously, think about 2000-2008 and what went wrong and why.
@Jaybird, I’d like a Fiscon/Socon split because it would provide me with a (Fiscon) party I could actually support rather than merely voting for the least dangerous crazies. Sadly, though I don’t think Fiscon policies alone can ever win elections – the electorate is always going to be tempted by bread and circuses and assurances that its other people’s money being spent on them. The TP (populist) versus “moderate” (establishment) split seems much more likely, but neither party that came out of it would be very attractive to me personally.
@Simon K, perhaps to move past the current political logjams and shoutfests it might be useful to let go of silly smears and strawmen. In case it isn’t obvious: “other peoples money”. and it seems its the free market media that provides our bread and kardashians.
@Simon K, I’m probably not thinking of what you think I’m thinking of when I talk about “other people’s money”. It was probably a poor choice of phrase, but its a real problem in democratic politics on the right and the left.
In general we rely on the government to do things we can’t individually afford to do or coordinate privately. In some cases this is obviously vastly more efficient – national defence, say, to pick a largely uncontroversial example. In other cases its clearly inefficient for the vast majority of taxpayers since they’d make better use of the money themselves – subsidising corn based ethanol fuel, to pick as uncontroversial an example as possible. Other cases are directly and explicitly redistributive – TANF (welfare), for instance, or social security (to some extent). Contrary to what you might think I don’t actually have a huge problem with this in and of itself – it may well be more efficient to pay for these things through taxes than to try to coordinate them voluntarily and the cost to those who wouldn’t choose to contribute voluntarily bothers me very little.
But – here’s the rub – its pretty hard for voters to actually identify which government programs are a net plus, and which only work out for the beneficiaries because they impose a larger or equal cost elsewhere. I challenge anyone, for instance, to work out whether the recent healthcare reform bill will actually be a net positive – I certainly don’t know and I’ve spend a lot of time reading up on it.
Fiscal conservatism as a stand-alone position – generally fails for exactly this reason. Trying to cut any spending at all inevitably produces howls of outrage from the affected groups who inevitably have excellent evidence demonstrating beyond any doubt that their specific programs are essential for the welfare of the country as a whole. The voters, usually for quite good reasons, often end up giving these pro-spending lobbies the benefit of the doubt. This is one reason why, as I say above, some kind of leadership in creating and presenting a coherent program is required.
@Simon K, Oh, and since I’m rambling at length here, I should also add that politicians do often resort to reassuring us that it is indeed only “the rich” who will be paying for whatever program it is they’re trying to garner support for. This is quite literally assuring us that it’ll be other people’s money.
@Simon K, Simon K, the closest that we have to a Fiscon party is the Democratic Party; at this point we’ve just lived through the *second* GOP administration which gleefully ran up the tab, left power and handed the mess over to the Democrats to clean up.
This is one more data point against the liberaltarian coalition; ‘libertarians’ *still* don’t get it, after 30 years.
@Barry, is it honestly your position that we should look at Obama and the Democratic Majority and be impressed at their fiscal restraint when compared to Bush?
@Jaybird, Seriously look at the States rights position Jay. It’s something that should be able to do other than a fiscon, socon split. Everybody should be able to unite behind that one: neocon, fiscal, socon, liberal. It would scratch everyones back if they thought about it.
@Cascadian, oh *I* am a fan… but I don’t see that coalition getting off the ground.
It’s not enough that people in Colorado can’t X… we want to make sure that you can’t X in Wyoming either.
@Cascadian, I think this is a much easier sell for those of you who do not live in California.
Minor point but for all the overlap of policies a Conservative Labour coallition was never on the cards. There is simply too much history of rivalry between them for either side to even contemplate it. There was talk of a Labour Liberal deal but that fairly rapidly fell apart .
@Matty,
There also IIANM were not enough seats for a LibDem-Labour coalition without enlisting the support of some members of the Irish and Scottish regional parties, which the conventional wisdom said was either unachievable or untennable.
@Kolohe,
True, it was felt that what they callled the’rainbow alliance’ would have been unstable because of the number of parties needed. Also as I remember the Scottish (and Welsh) nationalist all but openly said that the price of any deal would be to have any cuts in government spending or higher taxes restricted to England, which would obviously never fly.
A good coalition would be of all groups tired of government intervention — this coalition could agree that government can much less, and we can do much more, then those who want to sit on the front porch, play banjo and eat garden grown broccoli can do so, and those who love modernity can hustle and bustle their technological asses off. Each to their own — do your own thing — peace, love and i-pod. But, doing your own thing can entail charity, volunteering, choosing to sacrifice a part of your good fortune for those less fortunate. Enlightened individualism places morality as a choice not a duty to be regulated by government. 300 million points of light. Plus, in a free economy unburdened by government intervention and illegitimate taxation, there will opportunity and prosperity. Enlightenment plus a wad of cash equals compassion. An ethos forms — we take care of our own, because we are each better off if the least is better off. Teach a woman to fish and you’ll have a good partner.
@Mike Farmer,
Have you just proposed an alliance between the libertarians and the libertarians?
@Matty,
And the classical liberals! Please join and receive a Jefferson coffee cup and a “Don’t Tread On Me” t-shirt. Spread the word, dude.
@Mike Farmer, it seems to me that what we have now is “a wad of cash” albeit concentrated in the hands of a relative few minus the “enlightenment”. What are the barriers to enlightenment that are preventing the ethos you envision from forming?
@62across, one of the things I’ve noticed is that the more that a society foists off on the government, the more likely it is that the response to a catastrophe is to say “well, the government ought to take care of that!”
After Katrina (the Hurricane), I was listening to NPR and they were talking to one of the reporters from Northern Europe (one of the blond/blue countries) and they asked him about his observations. He said that, back home, if something like this happened then people would have the attitude that “I pay my taxes, the government should do something.” He expressed surprise at the huge amount of volunteers who were there because of the attitude that “this is our responsibility to our fellow man” (that was (co-incidentally?) preached from the pulpits nearby).
When I made the observation at Crooked Timber a few years back (was 2006 *REALLY* four years ago???), I was told “What your anecdote is worth is that it’s another milestone in the Republicanization of NPR.”
Maybe that’s true… but I kinda wonder if, maybe, the idea that “we have people for that” isn’t part of the problem.
@Jaybird, I’ll grant the potential for a robust government to lead to over-reliance on said government and I believe we as a society need to be diligent to avoid that pitfall. I’m not one of those “more government is better government” folks.
What I have a hard time believing is this idea that greatly limiting government will somehow lead inexorably to greater charity and volunteerism – that being unshackled from the burdens of taxation and regulation will lead to “choosing to sacrifice a part of your good fortune for those less fortunate”.
This brings to mind the South Park with the gnome businessmen:
1. Collect Underpants.
2. ?
3. Profit.
Only this time it’s
1. Eliminate the state.
2. ?
3. Opportunity and prosperity for all.
The idea of an ethos where we take care of the weakest among us because “we are all better off if the least is better off” has been around for millennia. Could it really be possible that all that has prevented that ethos from taking hold over all humanity is that there have always been governments that have provided services and taxed people? Seriously??
No, elimination of government will only lead to less government. The opportunity and prosperity of most of us will be at the sole discretion of those who historically have shown they’d mostly rather use their wealth and power to consolidate and perpetuate their wealth and power than to improve the lot of those less fortunate.
@62across,
Well, we’re already the most charitable nation in the country — you don’t hear much about it in the media, but the rich few give a lot — what I’m talking about is a rich many with wads of cash and a big ol’ heart. We need to remove the barriers to a free market. One thing is in a properous society there is less poverty and more people with money to meet the existing needs. The unfortunate in society can easily be taken care of if most people are doing well. It’s hard to be enlightened and compassionate when you’re out of work and depending on the government.
@Mike Farmer, so we are already the most charitable nation in the world, yet we remain as a nation so reliant on government spending that we, the wealthiest nation on earth as well, can’t balance our books. That doesn’t suggest to me a growth capacity in our charitableness that would serve to meet the shortfall when the government will no longer support the people’s dependency.
The current trajectory is not toward a “rich many”, but instead toward a “richer fewer”.
@62across, make sure you put the right folks in charge of government oversight of redistribution… lord knows, a corrupt government colluding with corporations is even worse than one not powerful enough for corporations to bother colluding with.
@Jaybird, I don’t think I said anything about the government redistributing anything.
What I am saying is that there is nothing to support the idea that with no government or a weaker government, somehow prosperity will spread to so many more people that charity will flourish and the less fortunate will be easily taken care of by a suddenly more generous society.
You state that it is worse to have a strong government in collusion with the corporations than to have corporations which can have whatever they want without the bother of colluding with anyone. Fair enough. I can see the thinking there. But why are these my only two choices? I realize it may be wishful, but is a non-corrupt government not even a possibility?
@62across, I realize it may be wishful, but is a non-corrupt government not even a possibility?
I don’t know.
I certainly can’t think of one in recent memory.
@62across,
I’m talking about changing the trajectory to private wealth and charity, not government spending and waste.
@Mike Farmer, No one is talking about corporations doing anything they want, jeez! there is the rule of law — without corporate welfare, competition will flourish and we will once again attract real business people to the market, not rent-seekers — and all fraud and violation of rights should be punished.
@simon k- you are correct that people don’t see where specifically their money goes but they do like the programs that help them. but that is not a government problem per se, its a perception problem that people think government is a salad bar where they just pick what they want. Its more about our cognitive biases that lead us to value what we can feel personally but demonize that which we can’t relate to.
@gregiank, Cognitive bias is an issue, of course, but there’s a much more fundamental thing going on too – its not just than individually we don’t know how efficiently government programs do their jobs, its that collectively we can’t know. No-one knows and there’s no good process for finding out, so when it comes to elections we generally just let our particular biases about roughly what the shape of government should be dominate – there’s no particular reason to expect good decisions where there’s no reliable information. Contrast this with what happens in fully voluntary relationships where we can each judge for ourselves and usually have good points of comparison to figure out which services are worth expending effort and money on.
@Simon K,
You thoughts on how we evaluate fully voluntary relationships are adorable.
@ThatPirateGuy, Here’s how I evaluate fully voluntary relationships:
Is it still going on? Pass.
Does one side or the other terminate the relationship? Fail.
Should I use a different metric?
@ThatPirateGuy, That’s what my wife tells me too :)
Seriously, though, I didn’t want to have to head off into micro 101, with all the necessary caveats and exemptions for fear of losing the point.
@Simon K,
Jaybird has a point about being able to terminate the agreement. I just don’t think that there is good evidence for the proposition that humans are rational deciders.
The evidence points the other way. See homeopathy, creationism, astrology, conspiracy theories of all stripes, Regression Therapy, etc.
@ThatPirateGuy, Humans as rational deciders? No chance! Quite the reverse really – voluntary relationships don’t work because we are rational. They help to make us more rational because we have to talk about costs and benefits in order to secure other people’s cooperation. There are certainly cases where it doesn’t work, and it only works within certain institutional frameworks but when it does work the results are pretty impressive.
Jaybird Reply:
“@Barry, is it honestly your position that we should look at
Obama and the Democratic Majority and be impressed at their fiscal restraint when compared to Bush?”
First, yes.
Second, my major point is that it’s been 30 years since Reagan took the (not necessarily deserved) Republican reputation for fiscal conservatism, wiped his *ss with it, and cashed it in. Since then the GOP has been the fiscally batsh*t insane party, with Newt and Dubya and the entire GOP Congress workin’ real hard on living down to that reputation. And thirty years afterwards, alleged libertarians *still* are navigating by landmarks which are Not There Anymore.
Now, for a faction which is really right-wing, this makes sense. For a faction which is ‘orthogonal to the standard two-party system’, it doesn’t.
Third – to whom ever runs this blog, please get some real bloging software. The reply links don’t work (which is why I’m relying down here), and there are no links to previous and later posts, so that I have to return to the main page, and scoll on down.
Thanks!
@Barry, Bush’s spending (and Reagan’s, for that matter, and Nixon’s) was atrocious *AND* he had a Republican Congress *AND* he had a Republican Senate and spending *SKYROCKETED*.
So, if I were to look at the Democrats, it’s your view that I will be impressed with their restraint when it comes to spending? The numbers for the deficit and debt will be better than on the day that Obama got in?
Or is that not what you mean when you say that I should be impressed by the fiscal restraint of Obama and the majority Democratic House and Senate?
@Jaybird, “So, if I were to look at the Democrats, it’s your view that I will be impressed with their restraint when it comes to spending? The numbers for the deficit and debt will be better than on the day that Obama got in?”
The numbers for the deficit will be better on the day that Obama leaves office than when he took office, that I’m sure of. The total debt, I doubt it.
Now, should I assume that you’ve forgotten the situation at the end of Bush II’s reign?
@Barry, not at all.
So your position is that, maybe things look worse now than under the Republicans, but things will totally look better a few years from now.
And, as such, it’s irrational for me to be anything but impressed by how good the democrats are going to eventually prove to be?
@Barry, I mean, my god man, it’s like asking “which party is better on the legalization of marijuana?” and people are explaining to me that, seriously, I should totally support this party that is against it because that other party that is against it is sooooo much worse.
Dude. They’re both horrid.
The closest thing to a high-water mark we have involves copious amounts of gridlock.
@Jaybird, “I mean, my god man, it’s like asking “which party is better on the legalization of marijuana?” and people are explaining to me that, seriously, I should totally support this party that is against it because that other party that is against it is sooooo much worse.”
Except for the little fact that this is a different issue, with great differences between the two parties?
As for gridlock, the decisions to get the federal budget in order were all made an implemented before the GOP took Congress – to the howls of the right. It wasn’t until the late 1990′s that the right decided that it was no longer the ‘Clinton Economy’.
@Barry, Except for the little fact that this is a different issue, with great differences between the two parties?
Doesn’t look like it from here.
It looks like, as gawdawful as Bush was, he created a new baseline for Obama to work from rather than an excessive amount for Obama to walk back from.
You know. Like with civil liberties.
@Barry, Sorry. Not buying it. I’ll buy it when I see a plan to cut the deficit. I mean you can postpone it until the recovery is confirmed if you like, but right now there isn’t even a plan. I mean I agree with you that republican fiscal policy is insane. I get it. I get the libertarians in principle should have more in common with liberals than with conservatives, and personally I certainly do. But if the best case you can make for the Democrats fiscal prudence is that Bush was worse and Clinton was quite decent really, thats just not a stronge enough argument to get any commitment from me. You need to show me the money, literally in this case.
@Simon K, I agree Simon (and I’m a Dem partisan). Obama really does need to demonstrate credibility on the spending issue. He’s gotten a longstanding Dem wet dream at least partially realized. He needs to show that the Dems are also the party that can manage the country like adults. I just wish he would. For the love of God(ess?) it wouldn’t even be that hard. He could cut superfluous defense spending and dial back the war on drugs funding and BOOM he’s more fiscally conservative than Bush Minor and Reagan combined.
Not that libertarians would move left if he did, but at least it’d discomfort them.
@North, ending the WoD would have a *HUGE* effect upon libertarians. As would slashing the budget.
They might even be willing to overcome their aversion to the health care bill…
@Jaybird,
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/25/local/la-me-marijuana-initiative25-2010mar25
Perhaps libertarians and liberals could work together on getting this initiative passed. Hmm, I should donate some time and money i think.
Do you know of any crazy terrible things about the initiative?
@ThatPirateGuy, One crazy thing – the polling thus far shows it has a very good chance of passing.
@ThatPirateGuy, I’m a fan. I hope it passes.
In the first year, tax revenues (and weird unintended consequences such as tourism exploding) will result in California’s tax problem evaporating.
Soon afterwards, all of the other states will engage in similar in the hopes of recreating the windfall that California got… that will never be repeated because of the immense benefits of competition in the market will result in price slashing, slashing, and slashing until it is realized that the only reason people were willing to pay 100 bucks an ounce (or whatever it is… I am pleased to be completely ignorant of the prices) is because they had no other options.
But I digress.
Yes, I imagine that liberals and libertarians and (fiscal) conservatives will be delighted by the passage of this bill.
I am doing what (little) I can to get it to pass (specifically, telling my Califriends to vote for it).
@ThatPirateGuy,
I think the campaign could do with some of my money tonight.
@Simon K, “Simon K Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 1:03 pm
@Barry, Sorry. Not buying it. ”
And I don’t give a flying f*ck. That’s my whole point here – the ‘libertarians’ are with the GOP when it comes to anything economic.
@Barry,
No, most libertarians agree on certain economic principles. If the “GOP” agrees with these principles, then so be it. However, the “GOP” is not in sync, really, with libertarian economic principles, so I don’t what your point is exactly. I think the only reason some libertarians vote GOP is that the other choices are either impossible or they suck. I imagine most libertarians voted libertarian or Democrat the last election. They might give the GOP one more shot in 2012, but if that doesn’t work out, I suspect there will be a viable third party in the mix come 2016. Most voters, including libertarians, are fed up with the two party hoax.
@Mike Farmer,
Watch Chris Matthews tonight for an objective, insightful analysis of the “new right”. This is how libertarians will be framed going into the 2012 election. They’re really just rightwing nut jobs with guns and a vendetta against gubbint.
@Mike Farmer, we need to get Barry and Koz talking to each other.
“The Republicans are the only hope for fiscal sanity!”
“No, the Democrats are the only hope for fiscal sanity!”
@Mike Farmer,
Yes, Jaybird, it would be an interesting debate. The only problem is using “sanity” to describe any aspect of Republican or Democrat.
@Mike Farmer, That’s “gummint!”
@Barry, Look, we started this conversation with you claiming that the Democrats are the part of fiscal sanity. Your response to my pointing out that they’re not doing a very good job of it is to swear at me, and tell me I’m “with the GOP” in spite of the fact I called them batshit crazy? FWIW I’d probably vote for a Democrat this year (were I able to vote, which I’m not) anyway.
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