{ 31 comments }

1 North June 18, 2010 at 1:02 pm

That’s Andrew for you. Quite a polarized fellow. I’m prone to hyperbole myself but he is the blogosphere’s reigning King (Queen?) of it.

Still read him obsessively though.

2 silentbeep June 21, 2010 at 9:57 am

Queen? Oh come on.

3 Jaybird June 21, 2010 at 10:02 am

HE’LL SAVE EVERY ONE OF US

4 North June 21, 2010 at 12:44 pm

@silentbeep, I love Sully, but on subjects like Hillary during the primaries or Palin any time you can almost envision him clutching the pearls as he shrieks. It’s a criticism from me but a loving one, I love wacky hyperbole. S’why Koz or Bob can always can get a smile out of me.

5 Mike Schilling June 18, 2010 at 1:14 pm

That Obama got BP to live up to their end of the bargain on that principle just doesn’t strike me as remarkable.

Then you’ve never heard of the Exxon Valdez.

6 North June 18, 2010 at 1:45 pm

@Mike Schilling, I believe he’s thinking in terms of principle instead of practical.
In principle expecting BP to pay for the mess they’ve made is a no brainer and that they’re adhering to that is unremarkable.
In practice there are all kinds of ways BP could evade these obligations and that they’re being nailed down this way is a bit of a coup.

7 nadezhda June 18, 2010 at 1:59 pm

@North, Yep. It’s also a problem of timing. Resitution delayed is recovery denied. A small business may finally get a court award after a decade or two of class actions. But their business — and their employees jobs and the town they live in — is long gone. So achieving a short-cut on processing the fairly straight-forward smallish claims is a huge win.

8 Scott H. Payne June 18, 2010 at 2:00 pm

@nadezhda, Hm, fair ball. I may have overstated my case in this issue, then.

9 gregiank June 18, 2010 at 2:20 pm

@Scott H. Payne, up until this year….yes this year….Exxon was still fighting paying for the Valdez spill. The escrow account is a big win for the good guys.

10 Scott H. Payne June 18, 2010 at 3:02 pm

@gregiank, yeah, I’m prepared to walk back on this.

11 nadezhda June 18, 2010 at 2:15 pm

There are a couple of things going on here that need to be teased apart. On the one hand, there’s policy-making politics. How to get Obama to do the things you want him to do (thought you elected him to do). And on that score, it’s important to keep pressure on across all fronts, including making lots of noise, when he doesn’t go as far as you think he should or heads in what you think is the wrong direction.

On the other hand, there’s electoral politics. Obama’s not going to be able to get anything done you want to see happen if he has to deal with a Republican-controlled House or a skinny majority in a filibuster-crazed Senate. So getting your folks to the polls at the mid-terms is as or more important than any single issue.

The problem that Sullivan, Chait and Tomasky are pointing out is that the media (and the Dems who are making noise) aren’t giving Obama any credit for his significant accomplishments. Which means the only noise being heard by the mass of not-very-attentive potential voters is the hysteria on the Right and the anger from folks who ought to be Obama supporters. That keeps the enthusiasm gap between potential Repubican and Democratic voters huge and growing. It also reduces the White House’s leverage vis a vis “centrist” Senators, so all the negativity even has the potential to be self-defeating as a matter of policy-making politics.

I don’t know how to overcome the media’s reluctance to report on Obama’s accomplishments. But it seems like part of the responsibility should rest on those who really don’t want the GOP to rack up massive gains in November. So maybe a “he’s doing great cleaning up messes the GOP would create again if they got back in power, but it’s way too little” needs to be the message. Hard to pull off, however. Especially given the media’s hunger for the “Dems at war with each other” part of the story. However, over the decades, the GOP has been much more successful with that mixed message than the Dems, whose story-line is inevitably circular firing squads or cat-herding.

And btw. We should have learned our lesson, not just during Bush 43 but the past 18 months, that Nader was 100% wrong — there in fact is just about all the difference in the world between the Dems and the GOP, both in Congress and the White House.

12 Koz June 21, 2010 at 7:16 am

“So maybe a “he’s doing great cleaning up messes the GOP would create again if they got back in power, but it’s way too little” needs to be the message. Hard to pull off, however.”

That message is going nowhere. 1. Most people don’t believe it, including a substantial number of liberals. 2. For many of those who do believe that, it’s a unexpressed gut feeling instead of a proposition to be directly advocated. 3. The people who could argue that case won’t because it depends on explicitly repudiating the self-determination of the American people.

13 Bob Cheeks June 18, 2010 at 3:29 pm

When’s the Kenyan communist going to plug the damn hole?

14 Koz June 20, 2010 at 9:13 pm

Exactly. This whole business of this multibillion dollar escrow account is lipstick on a pig, and (for me at least) a very illustrative example at that. Both Obama and the netroots base are corrupted by folk Marxism. Ie, the world’s economic production is more or less a given, and the essence of politics is to make sure that enough of it goes to ourselves or our favored recipients.

Unfortunately for the President, it’s obvious to everyone but him that he is attempting to solve the wrong problem. Who pays for cleanup is secondary issue to stopping the leak in the first place. Relative to where we are now, we’d be far better off if somehow BP or the gov’t had figured out a way to stop the spill after three weeks and BP successfully lawyered up and avoided liability.

As this relates to the original post, the progressive netroots are an angry pitbull: sometimes they bite the conservative cultural figures, sometimes they bite the liberal political establishment, sometimes they bite themselves. You could say that with training they will learn to bite the “right” people and leave everyone else alone. But considering that progressives have no useful role in American political affairs and little prospect of finding one, it’s better to call animal control and let them deal with it.

15 greginak June 20, 2010 at 10:35 pm

@Koz, you know who else compared people to animals don’t you?

16 Koz June 20, 2010 at 11:15 pm

Not offhand, but whoever it was I’m sure it was bad. That was just an analogy and I don’t want it to be taken the wrong way so let me walk back the pit bull business.

Instead let’s say this: the Left in America is hopelessly corrupted because of their folk Marxist mentality (and other things). This is especially topical for America because the American people have less folk Marxist mentality than just about any other industrialized country on Earth.

The essential resentments inherent in this mentality are magnified for the netroots and other politically active progressives, since they spend more of their energies dwelling on such things (and without the responsibilities of being accountable which distinguishes them from the likes of President Obama).

Therefore, instead of trying to figure out criteria for correctly (re)focusing these resentments, the progressives should simply give them up altogether since their participation in public affairs is entirely pathological in the first place.

17 Mike Schilling June 21, 2010 at 10:01 pm

@Koz, Relative to where we are now, we’d be far better off if somehow BP or the gov’t had figured out a way to stop the spill after three weeks and BP successfully lawyered up and avoided liability.

And even better off if BP had spent that time invented a time machine that would let them avoid drilling that well in the first place.

18 Koz June 21, 2010 at 10:59 pm

Well, yes, but if the President advocated that in a speech in nationally televised speech he’d look even sillier than he does now.

19 Mike Schilling June 22, 2010 at 8:39 am

@Koz,
Sillier than suggesting that holding BP responsible for the damage they’re causing has interfered with getting the leak plugged? I don’t think so.

20 Koz June 22, 2010 at 12:50 pm

Who’s saying that?

What I’m saying is that Obama’s THEY MUST PAY tack is symptomatic of his folk Marxist outlook that he brings to every remotely economic issue, not just this one.

Fortunately, it’s not cutting any ice with the American people at the moment.

21 Mike Schilling June 23, 2010 at 12:03 am

Holding people (whether fleshly or corporate) responsible for the consequences of their actions is Marxism now?

You know, conservatives used to claim to be realists who understood the iron laws of the dismal science. Now they’re magical thinkers who don’t think that economic incentives affect corporate behavior, but engineering problems will get solved if only the president wishes for them strongly enough.

22 Jason Kuznicki June 23, 2010 at 4:18 am

@Mike Schilling,

Agreed entirely. “They must pay” is the first principle of torts in the common law. Make the offending party pay, and do what you can to make the victims whole. If that’s Marxist, then I’m a Marxist too.

23 Koz June 23, 2010 at 7:02 am

Well, in America at least the adjudication of torts is not a Presidential function.

On the other hand, disaster recovery is an executive function, or at least has been taken to be in the last few decades. It just happens to be one that the President has shown little interest or aptitude for. His head is somewhere else, ie, folk Marxism.

24 Mike Farmer June 18, 2010 at 4:40 pm

The fact is that those on the left who want Obama to do more are shit-bird crazy, and those who think he hasn’t done too much are in denial, and those who want him to do less are brilliant.

25 Koz June 20, 2010 at 8:45 pm

Actually, the liberals’ political calculations are actually quite levelheaded and plausible in comparison to their ideas for America, which are a disaster and have been for the last forty years at least.

26 Mike Schilling June 21, 2010 at 10:04 pm

@Mike Farmer,
The fact is that those on the left who want Obama to do more are shit-bird crazy

The ones that want him to close Guantanamo, give its inmates genuine trials instead of Star Chamber hearings, and end state-sponsored kidnapping and torture are quite sane, it seems to me.

27 Mike Farmer June 18, 2010 at 4:43 pm

Oh, I forgot — are there still people who think Sullivan has anything relevant to say? I’ll wager 99.9% of the population don’t know who he is, and the rest simply put up with him.

28 Zach June 18, 2010 at 7:17 pm

The problem is that Greenwald and Hamsher pretend that the people who disagree with them do so solely out of dedication to Obama. They belittle anyone who crosses them as an OBot or someone following Dear Leader. Pointing out that the individual mandate would’ve been preferable but was a very small piece of healthcare reform means you’re in the tank for Obama. Suggesting that perhaps the response to the spill has been appropriately massive means you’re a shill for BP and don’t want any heat coming on Obama. On a site at Firedoglake, I asked specifically what commenters there think Obama or BP should’ve done differently after the spill. The immediate result was paranoid comments that I work for BP (as if BP would hire someone to troll Firedoglake). There’s a paranoia underlying this whole axis of criticism that makes actual debate next to impossible.

And, yes, there are areas where Obama is powerless to make good on promises thanks to the weak cohesion of the Democratic congressional coalition. The number one frustration I have with this administration concerns detainee issues (trials, detention, interrogation). The fact is that Congress has amply displayed it’s willingness and ability to block any attempt to humanely deal with detainees within the law. There’s an irony in Greenwald et al’s criticism of apparent abuses of executive power when, with an unchecked executive branch, we’d already have the closure of Guantanamo and criminal trials of detainees. Not to mention real CO2 emissions reductions, public health insurance available to everyone, amnesty, and progressive tax reform. Is Obama actually acting out of opposition to these policies? I doubt it.

29 cuero June 19, 2010 at 5:22 am

The question is: How much attention should Obama pay to Progressives? Why? becuse Progressives make a lot of snse on some matters; and, Progressives are an important part of the coalition that elected Obama. But, Obama is a smart man who thinks for himself. I voted for him because of his judgement. I did not vote for him because he does what I tell him to do.

I think that Obama should: determine what is right, then go ahead.

Perhaps a few disgruntled progressives should, off the record, observe, in silence, four hours of Obama’s day from 8 am to 12 noon.

30 Mike Farmer June 20, 2010 at 8:21 am

@cuero,
This pretty much overlooks the fact that Obama is a progressive. The problem is not that Obama doesn’t support progressivism, he does — the problem is that he can’t just push his progressive agenda through quickly enough for the progressive movement. This is not a jab at Obama — he’s a progressive and it needs to be understood. There’s no value in pretending Obama is a centrist caught between two extremes — if he had the power, he’d move forward with lightning speed with the progressive agenda — he’s stated it before, over and over.

31 Michael Drew June 20, 2010 at 12:56 am

Keep in mind that Sullivan is a “conservative.” By whatever his prevailing standard of achievement, in his view this president is not getting his due publicly for his. He may say that progressives should give it to him, but obviously, he can’t speak for them. Ultimately, he is speaking for himself, and i think we can generally take hime to be making the normative case for greater recognition at most to centrist establishment media types and people he fancies as “principled” conservatives like himself. he may heap a bit of scorn on committed progressives for not giving more credit, but my impression is he certainly gets that Obama isn’t going to get that break from them, and from their perspective shouldn’t. (I.e. I think he understands the idea of interest group pressure politics and how that is going to look as it plays out.)

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