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	<title>Comments for The League of Ordinary Gentlemen</title>
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	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 12:28:57 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Contraception, Catholics, Compulsion, and Compelling Interests by sonmi451</title>
		<link>http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/02/11/contraception-catholics-compulsion-and-compelling-interests/#comment-237994</link>
		<dc:creator>sonmi451</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 12:28:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=32944#comment-237994</guid>
		<description>Cynically speaking, I think what we need is for Muslims to start suing and making lots of noises about all sorts of religious exemptions. Then maybe the religious exemptions brigade might starts to think twice about things. Of course it&#039;s despicable to depend on people&#039;s bigotry, but I&#039;m thinking cynically here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cynically speaking, I think what we need is for Muslims to start suing and making lots of noises about all sorts of religious exemptions. Then maybe the religious exemptions brigade might starts to think twice about things. Of course it&#8217;s despicable to depend on people&#8217;s bigotry, but I&#8217;m thinking cynically here.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Contraception, Catholics, Compulsion, and Compelling Interests by sonmi451</title>
		<link>http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/02/11/contraception-catholics-compulsion-and-compelling-interests/#comment-237993</link>
		<dc:creator>sonmi451</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 12:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=32944#comment-237993</guid>
		<description>Then we will end up honoring the most restrictive prescriptions of each and every religion to cater to the whims of each and every religious employees and employers. Might as well declare ourselves a theocracy right now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then we will end up honoring the most restrictive prescriptions of each and every religion to cater to the whims of each and every religious employees and employers. Might as well declare ourselves a theocracy right now.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Another $0.02 on Art by Matty</title>
		<link>http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/02/12/another-0-02-on-art/#comment-237991</link>
		<dc:creator>Matty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 12:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=33043#comment-237991</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m struggling with this whole discussion, maybe if I ask a question or two it will clarify things.

You have in front of you two new artworks, they depict the same scene in different ways and you know nothing about the artists.

Would you be able to tell me that one is a superior piece of art?

If yes, can you tell me why it is superior, are there criteria I should look for or will you just point at one and announce that its superiority needs no explanation?

If you do just point, why should I take your word for it?

&#160;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m struggling with this whole discussion, maybe if I ask a question or two it will clarify things.</p>
<p>You have in front of you two new artworks, they depict the same scene in different ways and you know nothing about the artists.</p>
<p>Would you be able to tell me that one is a superior piece of art?</p>
<p>If yes, can you tell me why it is superior, are there criteria I should look for or will you just point at one and announce that its superiority needs no explanation?</p>
<p>If you do just point, why should I take your word for it?</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Contraception, Catholics, Compulsion, and Compelling Interests by Michael Drew</title>
		<link>http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/02/11/contraception-catholics-compulsion-and-compelling-interests/#comment-237981</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=32944#comment-237981</guid>
		<description>Do you know for a fact that Georgetown Hospitl is controlled by clergy, Burt? I&#039;ve been think about this a lot, and I do think that the question of who controls the institutions in question is quite key here.

By all means (I think) some of these institutions are controled by clergy, indeed by the high clergy represented by a group like the USCCB, so their view wrt to those institutions is legit.  But my sense is that the state of facts on this is much less clear than the bishops&#039; high-octane public stance has suggested.  I don&#039;t think we can assume that &lt;em&gt;all &lt;/em&gt;&quot;Catholic hospitals&quot; (or universities or other institutions) are in fact controlled by the clergy (or the church), nor indeed that their controlling officials concur with the bishops in having a religious objection to including contraception in their health plans (I thought I read that Georgetown U. Law Center, eg. included it).

You would agree that this is a significant consideration, then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you know for a fact that Georgetown Hospitl is controlled by clergy, Burt? I&#8217;ve been think about this a lot, and I do think that the question of who controls the institutions in question is quite key here.</p>
<p>By all means (I think) some of these institutions are controled by clergy, indeed by the high clergy represented by a group like the USCCB, so their view wrt to those institutions is legit.  But my sense is that the state of facts on this is much less clear than the bishops&#8217; high-octane public stance has suggested.  I don&#8217;t think we can assume that <em>all </em>&#8220;Catholic hospitals&#8221; (or universities or other institutions) are in fact controlled by the clergy (or the church), nor indeed that their controlling officials concur with the bishops in having a religious objection to including contraception in their health plans (I thought I read that Georgetown U. Law Center, eg. included it).</p>
<p>You would agree that this is a significant consideration, then?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Another $0.02 on Art by Michael Drew</title>
		<link>http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/02/12/another-0-02-on-art/#comment-237980</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:52:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=33043#comment-237980</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;The value of art comes in something that has little to do with how difficult it is physically to produce, or how well it is produced. It’s barely even related to those things. It has to do with how we relate to it, and there are both subjective and objective dimensions to that.&lt;/em&gt;

I ultimately agree with this, because I think the value of art ultimately has to do with giving pleasure to people for whom it is made, kind of like Roger&#039;s maxim of creating value for others (which has definitely been one of the more valuable ideas I&#039;ve gained while hanging around here).

But I certainly think that appreciation for craft has its place: we should be aware of the work that has gone into creating the artifacts we encounter (not only artwork, though, which is part of why this isn&#039;t a sufficient account of artistic value!).  I do think this recognition &lt;em&gt;can&lt;/em&gt; enhance our actual &lt;em&gt;experience &lt;/em&gt;of an artwork. Certainly it does for my experience of &lt;em&gt;Pieta &lt;/em&gt;(which I&#039;ve never had the pleasure of seeing in person) and of really fine performances of Baroque masterpieces such as the &lt;em&gt;Barandenburg&lt;/em&gt; concertos I&#039;ve seen on YouTube, and I think we have to assume it contributes to people&#039;s enjoyment of the Sistine frescoes (also never seen).  Knowledge about the creation of a work can magnify our direct enjoyment of it.

But craft, effort, skill and difficulty aren&#039;t ultimately the whole story of the artistic value of art. That&#039;s just one side of the story. Art is &lt;em&gt;meant &lt;/em&gt;to create an involuntary, naive response in the uninformed experiencer. The audience member should not &lt;em&gt;need &lt;/em&gt;to appreciate the difficulty, effort, and skill of the work in order for the work to have its effect on her.  That is the business of the artist.  A work that consumed great effort and required great skill to create but that creates little direct response in an  observer uninformed about these things (uninformed as to the details of its creation, that is; enough familiarity with the works genre that the work potentially might move a person is required for judging its ability to do so) is ultimately of little value - or in any case two works that required the same high amount of effort to create are not of equal value if one moves many of those who experience it and another doesn&#039;t.  Indeed, we might even say that people who appreciate art primarily on the basis of an assessment of the difficulty and execution of the creation (alternatively, the level of skill and effort that went into it) have unmoored their evaluation from the &lt;em&gt;ultimate purpose of all art,&lt;/em&gt; which is to create a response in the experiencer, or else purely to express oneself (though ultimately nearly every artist, I belive is seeking to at least go beyond &lt;em&gt;expression&lt;/em&gt; to &lt;em&gt;communication&lt;/em&gt; of some sort, which then comes back to creating a response).  This is something that artists themselves rarely lose sight of - for them effort, craft, and skill merely happen to be the necessary means to (the necessary means for...) their end of expression, communication, or creation, and &quot;level of difficulty&quot; an incidental quantity that is simply a function of the requirements of the creation itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The value of art comes in something that has little to do with how difficult it is physically to produce, or how well it is produced. It’s barely even related to those things. It has to do with how we relate to it, and there are both subjective and objective dimensions to that.</em></p>
<p>I ultimately agree with this, because I think the value of art ultimately has to do with giving pleasure to people for whom it is made, kind of like Roger&#8217;s maxim of creating value for others (which has definitely been one of the more valuable ideas I&#8217;ve gained while hanging around here).</p>
<p>But I certainly think that appreciation for craft has its place: we should be aware of the work that has gone into creating the artifacts we encounter (not only artwork, though, which is part of why this isn&#8217;t a sufficient account of artistic value!).  I do think this recognition <em>can</em> enhance our actual <em>experience </em>of an artwork. Certainly it does for my experience of <em>Pieta </em>(which I&#8217;ve never had the pleasure of seeing in person) and of really fine performances of Baroque masterpieces such as the <em>Barandenburg</em> concertos I&#8217;ve seen on YouTube, and I think we have to assume it contributes to people&#8217;s enjoyment of the Sistine frescoes (also never seen).  Knowledge about the creation of a work can magnify our direct enjoyment of it.</p>
<p>But craft, effort, skill and difficulty aren&#8217;t ultimately the whole story of the artistic value of art. That&#8217;s just one side of the story. Art is <em>meant </em>to create an involuntary, naive response in the uninformed experiencer. The audience member should not <em>need </em>to appreciate the difficulty, effort, and skill of the work in order for the work to have its effect on her.  That is the business of the artist.  A work that consumed great effort and required great skill to create but that creates little direct response in an  observer uninformed about these things (uninformed as to the details of its creation, that is; enough familiarity with the works genre that the work potentially might move a person is required for judging its ability to do so) is ultimately of little value &#8211; or in any case two works that required the same high amount of effort to create are not of equal value if one moves many of those who experience it and another doesn&#8217;t.  Indeed, we might even say that people who appreciate art primarily on the basis of an assessment of the difficulty and execution of the creation (alternatively, the level of skill and effort that went into it) have unmoored their evaluation from the <em>ultimate purpose of all art,</em> which is to create a response in the experiencer, or else purely to express oneself (though ultimately nearly every artist, I belive is seeking to at least go beyond <em>expression</em> to <em>communication</em> of some sort, which then comes back to creating a response).  This is something that artists themselves rarely lose sight of &#8211; for them effort, craft, and skill merely happen to be the necessary means to (the necessary means for&#8230;) their end of expression, communication, or creation, and &#8220;level of difficulty&#8221; an incidental quantity that is simply a function of the requirements of the creation itself.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Another $0.02 on Art by Michael Drew</title>
		<link>http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/02/12/another-0-02-on-art/#comment-237975</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:14:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=33043#comment-237975</guid>
		<description>...allowing people to position themselves within the culture that is.

&lt;em&gt;Moving people&lt;/em&gt;, though, that is much closer to my view of the purpose of art.  Maybe right on the money, in fact. (My previous attempt was that the ultimate purpose was to provide pleasure [often experienced as &lt;i&gt;ex post facto &lt;/i&gt;appreciation of a work&#039;s expansion of or contribution to the richness of one&#039;s overall set of experiences and sensations in life, or in recognition of meaning or insight that has been gained by experiencing the work, but in other cases experienced directly as pleasure] that makes life more livable by softening or giving relief from the unpleasantness that the necessary parts of life impose on us.) I think I&#039;m marginally still with my previous attempt, but &quot;moving people&quot; is certainly simpler, and works more or less just as well analytically.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;allowing people to position themselves within the culture that is.</p>
<p><em>Moving people</em>, though, that is much closer to my view of the purpose of art.  Maybe right on the money, in fact. (My previous attempt was that the ultimate purpose was to provide pleasure [often experienced as <i>ex post facto </i>appreciation of a work's expansion of or contribution to the richness of one's overall set of experiences and sensations in life, or in recognition of meaning or insight that has been gained by experiencing the work, but in other cases experienced directly as pleasure] that makes life more livable by softening or giving relief from the unpleasantness that the necessary parts of life impose on us.) I think I&#8217;m marginally still with my previous attempt, but &#8220;moving people&#8221; is certainly simpler, and works more or less just as well analytically.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Another $0.02 on Art by Michael Drew</title>
		<link>http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/02/12/another-0-02-on-art/#comment-237973</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:01:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=33043#comment-237973</guid>
		<description>Wow, I really, really disagree that this is the basic animating purpose of art (though I think it is very much a resultant function of it in the event), but I&#039;m really glad you&#039;ve articulated since it allowed me to consider the idea and have an insight into a view very different from mine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, I really, really disagree that this is the basic animating purpose of art (though I think it is very much a resultant function of it in the event), but I&#8217;m really glad you&#8217;ve articulated since it allowed me to consider the idea and have an insight into a view very different from mine.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Over on the Mindless Diversions site&#8230; by Over on the Mindless Diversions site… &#124; nanowrimo.de</title>
		<link>http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/02/12/over-on-the-mindless-diversions-site/#comment-237969</link>
		<dc:creator>Over on the Mindless Diversions site… &#124; nanowrimo.de</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 07:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=33057#comment-237969</guid>
		<description>[...] his NaNoWriMo book (and, of course, tells us how we can get a copy of it for ourselves). ( 0 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] his NaNoWriMo book (and, of course, tells us how we can get a copy of it for ourselves). ( 0 [...]</p>
<p class="uexc_utils-links"> <a href='http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/02/12/over-on-the-mindless-diversions-site/?uexc_edit=237969#comment-237969' class='uexc-edit-link'>Edit</a> </p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Comment on Another $0.02 on Art by BlaiseP</title>
		<link>http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/02/12/another-0-02-on-art/#comment-237965</link>
		<dc:creator>BlaiseP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 07:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=33043#comment-237965</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s the odd part, they&#039;re not selling the art.   They&#039;re keeping it.   Just like the Medici crooks who commissioned it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the odd part, they&#8217;re not selling the art.   They&#8217;re keeping it.   Just like the Medici crooks who commissioned it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Another $0.02 on Art by Burt Likko</title>
		<link>http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/02/12/another-0-02-on-art/#comment-237964</link>
		<dc:creator>Burt Likko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 07:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=33043#comment-237964</guid>
		<description>Some practical questions, albeit only half-serious: don&#039;t I still have to liquidate the art in order to convert the proceeds of my crime into hookers and blow? And how am I to know whether I&#039;m being paid good value for my work as a criminal when I get painting &quot;X&quot; instead of sculpture &quot;Y&quot;?

What could possibly go wrong?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some practical questions, albeit only half-serious: don&#8217;t I still have to liquidate the art in order to convert the proceeds of my crime into hookers and blow? And how am I to know whether I&#8217;m being paid good value for my work as a criminal when I get painting &#8220;X&#8221; instead of sculpture &#8220;Y&#8221;?</p>
<p>What could possibly go wrong?</p>
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