Great feedback. Thanks.

Your pre- rebuttal on 1 brings up a good fact… That productivity trends have diverged from income gains. There are a lot of institutional factors that could cause this, global competition, immigration, and so on. Why do you assume the wealthy are getting rich at the expense of the poor? What evidence is there that the trend line for the one percent had any negative impact on income, rather than a positive impact to a trend that would have been even worse? Do you know of research on the topic? I could possibly link to it in the OP.

I agree the wealthy contribute to campaigns. Last data I read was they gave 52% to Obama. In other words, they give to both sides. In addition, there are the contributions of unions, government workers, lawyers, doctors, PACs etc. I actually agree that special interest rent seeking has a negative impact on society, but I don’t see the wealthy as being a particularly dangerous coalition. They are too diverse and even conflicting in their demands. Political contributions probably are a zero sum game.

@Rod, no fair jumping the gun! Poor Roger hasn’t even written it yet. :)

I could rebut your rebuttals, but will wait until the OP hits. 450 comments in a single thread (Great Job Hanley!) gets a bit unwieldy especially with this indenting system. I also want to answer Creon’s points below, only noticed his post today but would rather have more room for the inevitable back and forth.

Of course the reality is some of us just aren’t out traveling and enjoying ourselves this Memorial Day Weekend so in between backyard BBQ’s and honey-do’s we’re peeking in here to see what’s happening. If I were really thinking I’d have written something related to military service, but can’t match whatever Rtod (your arch nemesis namesake) would write. Well I’ll try, I know one good story, sort of a Sergeant York tale from WWII.

If there are examples of judges being voted out of office for this kind of thing, I would truly love to hear about it.

1. The problem is that the rich are getting rich at the expense of the poor (the zero sum fallacy)

I’m sorry, Roger, but if you look at the actual statistics on income distributions and such what you consider a fallacy does, in fact, seem to be happening. The main problem I see is that up to the mid ’70s wage growth matched productivity gains pretty closely, but after that point wages have stagnated badly while productivity continued to rise. The divergence is such that at this point I should be making roughly twice what I am now if historical trends had held.

2. The rich unfairly use their wealth to manipulate the rules to their own advantage (rent seeking and threats to democracy)

Big subject. Taking the latter first, there is an undeniable positive correlation between money spent on a campaign and electoral success. But we can also point to spectacular counter-examples like Meg Whitman’s unsuccessful bid for the Senate in 2010 despite spending a crapload of money.

I guess the best argument along these lines is to ask, If money doesn’t influence electoral results and policymaking then why are the corporations and the wealthy spending so much of their money that way? Presumably they aren’t foolish enough to just throw it away for no reason.

3. The rich don’t pay their fair share of taxes (though they pay more than in other modern states)

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. First, this depends on what you consider fair, so it’s easy to talk past each other. But the main people getting screwed, relatively speaking, are the upper middle-class folks–the people earning high-five to middling-six figure incomes. In particular those who earn high-ish salaries.

4. Disparity between rich and poor is a problem in and of itself due to status

Partly. There’s pretty strong correlation between equality measures and various indicators of social health (teen pregnancy, health stats, crime rates, etc.). This holds both between countries and between states within the U.S.

However, correlation does not prove causation, so “due to status”–whatever that means–is speculative. The working hypothesis is that the causal link is something like “social cohesion”–again, whatever that is.

5. The poor are being increasingly held down by discrimination and lack of adequate institutional support (heartless conservatives)

Racial discrimination? Not so much anymore, IMO. Institutional support is eroding, particularly in the Red states and, yes, that strikes me as sort of “heartless” in the midst of this… whatever the hell you call our current economic straits. There seems to be a view among some conservatives
and libertarian types that people are declining low-wage work in favor of an even much more meager existence on unemployment.

The most disturbing trend I’ve seen lately is the refusal of many employers to consider hiring the currently, particularly long-term, unemployed. Then they resist the extension of UI benefits. WTF??? Are they just supposed to die for your convenience?

6. A segment of the poor are stuck in a cycle of cultural,cognitive or institutional dependency

There is something to the theory of “learned helplessness.” These are complex subjects. I would need to see your specific thoughts to comment intelligently.

7. In reality the poor are actually better off than ever, and this is mainly smoke.

Well… yeah, in some ways maybe. Of course a lot of that is due to the very governmental supports that a lot of conservatives/libertarians want to dismantle. A lot of it is also due to the very economic trends, like importing cheap crap from China, that is responsible for the depression of wages in the first place.

What concerns me more than the plight of the poor per se, is the increase of the numbers of the low-wage-but-getting-by slipping into real poverty.

I genuinely look forward to your OP. Put on the gloves, dude. ;)

Throw his ass in jail.

The popular election of legal officers – judges, prosecutors – seems like such a self-evidently bad idea it’s a wonder that it isn’t even more widespread in the U.S. The next step is to dispense with courts completely and decide cases by phone-in referendum during American Idol or whatever.