State of the Discussion

The posts in play...

Beer, neoliberalism, and unions
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NPR’s Recent Top 100 List
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Why Don’t Liberals Care About Foreign Policy?
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Hawks to the left of me, hawks to the right…here I am…
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The comments...

Steve the hyena
+ But no one has yet raised a reliable contention against this. The baseline presumption would simply be that the slowdown in union formation, which precedes [. . .]
Steve the hyena

While this is true, it's also true that unions were more characterized by minority unionism, not the closed shop system you see now.

Patrick Cahalan

Well, now you've gone and done it. Snarky driveby post in three... two...

DensityDuck
+ "My point, which should have been extremely clear, was simply that there is no underlying dynamic in monopolies vis-a-vis smaller firms that itself prevents unionization. [. . .]
+ +1 DarrenG. These things get abstracted in a hurry, and there was a constellation of factors that made unionization c1850-1950 a necessary good: the [. . .]
Patrick Cahalan
+ Kids these days. They have no appreciation for the finer things. As a Laker fan, I *hated* John Stockton, but as a basketball fan, I [. . .]
Patrick Cahalan
+ > I see he won the Hugo for Time of Changes, > which I prefer and even had him autograph. Hey, put me down in the will [. . .]
DarrenG
+ I suspect similar labor conditions prevailed among the auto manufacturers and meat packers that unionized (the UAW and CIO came along well after the first [. . .]
wardsmith

Well, it /did/ have Beer in the title

wardsmith
+ The problem with popularity contests like this is they are most effective at measuring the current milieu's temperature. Great works of literature such as you [. . .]
Steve the hyena
+ The auto-industry unionized. So too did meat packing. The Teamsters formed in an environment that was actually dominated by individual contractors. The AFL was an [. . .]
+ I think "isolationist" is a misleading term. We can have open culture sharing, open trade, open foreign student exchange, ect, while still maintaining a neutral [. . .]
E.D. Kain
+ While this thread is still going strong, I just want to thank all the participants for making this a truly enjoyable and informative conversation. Too [. . .]
Steve the hyena

The problem is that I said as much as well. Go re-read the post. I dismiss firm size as a factor and discuss new entrants.

DarrenG
+ "What happens in a generation or two when NB is still a going concern (I hope) and there isn’t equity room for the next crop [. . .]

No assumption: http://coreyrobin.com/2011/07/21/why-arent-there-more-union-members-in-america-a-reply-to-will-wilkinson/

DarrenG
+ I'll admit to not being an expert on the history of the labor movement, but most of what I know about the rise of the [. . .]
E.D. Kain

It make sense from a media-news-reporting perspective to cover Ron Paul given the current economic and political climate.

wardsmith
+ What happens in a generation or two when NB is still a going concern (I hope) and there isn't equity room for the next crop [. . .]

To answer your question about other countries, with respect to enslaving people to military service, they are states which enslave people to military service.

+ No, I hardly think transaction is the sine qua non. If someone took control of another person and forced them to work against their will, [. . .]
Steve the hyena

Wait. What about Ron Paul's ideas makes sense in this economic climate?

DarrenG
+ I think it does disagree with you substantially, as I'm positing that the primary incentives for union formation are much less likely to exist in [. . .]

the state of being under the control of another person

Steve the hyena
+ No, the position is clearly stated: there's nothing about firm size or monopoly which in itself creates incentives to unionize. It's useful to disentangle our [. . .]
+ Well, I'm not criticizing Obama from the left, and only mildly from the right. You gotta admit, surely, that his predecessor left him [. . .]
DarrenG
+ This strain of argument seems to assume union formation is something that happens organically within any labor market that doesn't have artificial barriers to unionization, [. . .]
Rev.Blue Moon
+ Your argument is as follows: 1. Slavery = turning people into property 2. Property = Something that can be bought or sold 3. Conscription does not involve the [. . .]
Steve the hyena
+ Not really. Only post-NLRB and within that system is this actually true because it requires a bureaucratic shop procedure with contract negotiations and so on. [. . .]
+ Whatever happened, it was something that should have been avoided, so yes, that's a mark against Paul -- but Ron Paul is not a racist, [. . .]
E.D. Kain
+ Notably, this will never happen at Miller or any of the big corporations. This is one benefit of a competitive marketplace. Worker-owned shops and co-ops [. . .]
Steve the hyena
+ This doesn't disagree with me at all and, in fact, reiterates a point I made above. My point, which should have been extremely clear, was simply [. . .]
E.D. Kain
+ There's nothing ironic about that at all. I think it's great. I've argued repeatedly that I think people should skip unions and take back the [. . .]
Stillwater

{{Why can't I learn to proofread before hitting 'submit'?}}

+ That's true. It was my mistake to operate as if it were. I think I did so because it seems to me to be the [. . .]
Stillwater
+ I think it adds something ironic - but not really important - to the debate going on here to note that NB is actually a [. . .]
DarrenG
+ Elias: The disconnect in your argument, at least for me, is your lack of specificity on what "unionization is available for those who seek it" [. . .]
E.D. Kain
+ I think everyone should have the right to unionize and I think it can be a decent threat even when not achieved. That's not really [. . .]
+ I think what I've just posted might be answer enough but: no, I don't think a union is good because it's a union. I do [. . .]
+ I'd say so, unless he's doing the wrong thing out of a menue of wrong things. If there's no right option then I wouldn't fault [. . .]
wardsmith

So, did Carter deregulate the brewers just to promote "Billy" beer? ;)

Again, my point is whether or not workers are able to form a union if they want to -- not that it should be mandated.

+ I'm gonna agree with the hyena here. There's no reason the smaller breweries wouldn't unionize unless 1) the rules for unionization are too strict or [. . .]
E.D. Kain

Not all small businesses are the same, nor is say, Sam Adams or New Belgium the same as Mom and Pop's Diner.