Gin & Tacos: Undisciplined Retreat

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  1. DensityDuck says:

    “I realize how closely earning power is connected to masculinity in the United States.”

    As with basically everything else that’s ever been a problem in the USA ever, it turns out that the real problem is asshole dudebros who just won’t stop thinking the world turns upon their dicks.Report

  2. veronica d says:

    There does seem to a growing “angry white guy” thing. I mean, I’ve in the past couple years encountered a few men who fit this profile. One assaulted me on the subway. The other verbally harassed two minorities, who he accused of being Muslim (although it turns out they were not). After that he threatened to cut my throat, just for being visibly trans and looking at him.

    Anyway whatever. This is Boston. No open carry here. Plus, white power doesn’t run thick here — but neither is it totally absent. Blah.

    I recall decades ago, a friend of mine got dumped by a girl, hurt bad, couldn’t deal, had no emotional tools, etc. A common enough story. Back then the tools we had all emerged from angry, hyper-masculine punk rock. So the guy shaved his head, went full skin, and then beat the fuck out of the girl’s new b/f.

    Years later he murdered a guy. So yeah. Truth.

    It is hard for men to form close bonds with other men, ones that allow a full range of emotional expression. It is hard for men to bear feeling powerless. Likewise, it seems easy for men to “go hard,” become the “iceman,” so they watch Breaking Bad or some shit and just go off the rails.

    I dunno. Last night at the Against Me show, I began the evening curled up in a friend’s arms while I cried my fucking eyes out, cuz stuff. By the end of the night I ended up making out with three women and getting a maybe-date with this one other girl. So — being a poly lesbian is kinda cool. Having emotions is really nice.

    Men don’t do that. They hold it in, act “stoic,” but not really stoic cuz they lack the inner strength that stoicism requires.

    They are weaklings. They need to get tough, which means setting aside all the hyper-macho bullshit.

    Man up and act like a woman.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to veronica d says:

      Well, I’d argue that even the people who are arguing that men need better emotional tools and more close bonds with other men are very willing to smash down hard when an average man actually expresses his emotions or at least does so in a way not approved, which seems to be anyway. There are also many heterosexual cis-gendered women, even among those that describe themselves as liberal feminists, that can get really into traditional gender roles when they like it. On my facebook feed, there have been many self-described feminists that have posted dreck on men being the pursuing gender in romance and saying how true it is.

      It seems to me that the biggest critics of hyper-masculinity, which is always an ill-defined term, are some of the people who place the biggest obstacles to doing something about it by making fun of men who occasional vent or complain about their lack of romantic or sexual success as “nice guys” or not providing a means for male emotional bonding by going after all male spaces or looking at all male gatherings as suspect.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to LeeEsq says:

        I’m gonna step in an moderate because there is a history of you going back and forth.

        The main thing that struck me about this guy is the income-economics angle. How can a middle-class neighborhood be described as being filled with crime and drugs? The guy sort of thought of himself as okay when he could work even though he went through numerous bankruptcies. Then he had his heart attack and can no longer do the unskilled to semi-skilled labor that supported his family. Now he is adrift…Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw says:

          The idea of men, as in people of the male gender, as the provider and maker is deeply part of the human psyche. The assumption in many cultures is that if you are man than you should work and provide for family. I’m currently reading a book on the history of consumerism called an Empire of Things. The first DIY became big when the Second Industrial Revolution of the late 19th and early 20th century lead to an increasing number of men doing office work or store work for a living rather than being artisans. Early DIY was seen as making things. Since many men are finding it harder to make a living, you get similar threats to masculinity.Report

      • notme in reply to LeeEsq says:

        It seems to me that the biggest critics of hyper-masculinity, which is always an ill-defined term, are some of the people who place the biggest obstacles to doing something about it by making fun of men who occasional vent or complain about their lack of romantic or sexual success as “nice guys” or not providing a means for male emotional bonding by going after all male spaces or looking at all male gatherings as suspect.

        So you mean liberals?Report

      • veronica d in reply to LeeEsq says:

        @leeesq — Yeah, but “nice guys” are not men who are secure in their emotions. They are the opposite of that. Nor are they men who have constructive tools to share their feelings. Instead, they are passive-aggressive ninnies who hide their feelings and then get butthurt that women cannot read their poor-sad minds.

        The “nice guy” behavior patterns are garbage.

        When I say “man up and act like a woman,” I do not mean act like a simpering wimp. I mean the opposite.Report

        • Damon in reply to veronica d says:

          ” Yeah, but “nice guys” are not men who are secure in their emotions. ”

          100% bullshit. I’m a nice guy and fully in control/secure in/of my emotions. And I’m not some rarity. All my guy friends are too. I’ve dated a lot of women since my divorce, and it’s primarily the women who can’t or won’t express their feelz. Either that or they can’t make up their own damn mind. Or, they just don’t give a damn, regardless of their feelz, and just end contact–that’s far easier than, you know, have the stones to actually tell you what’s on their mind.Report

          • Kimmi in reply to Damon says:


            Quotes are important here, please read them as “no, damon, you aren’t a Quote nice guy Unquote”Report

            • Damon in reply to Kimmi says:

              Sure? Maybe I am and my “internet personality” is different on this site? And yeah I may or may not be a “nice guy” meme wise, but I damn well fit the words V used.Report

          • Don Zeko in reply to Damon says:

            I’m pretty sure @veronica-d is talking about Nice Guys, not nice guys. So she means (I think, check me if I’m wrong), dudes that act like women are obligated to fuck them because they aren’t actively monsters. No offense is meant to guys who are actually nice, a group that hopefully includes you and me.Report

          • veronica d in reply to Damon says:

            @damon — The classic “nice guy” is like this:

            1. He likes a girl, but he doesn’t tell her.

            2. Instead, he just “hangs around” her, and thus ends up in her “friend zone.”

            (Note, the woman may or may not perceive what is happening here. It’s complicated.)

            3. He remains there, being a bit clingy, but not so much she pushes him away. He gives her emotional support.


            4. He resents the hell out of her. He hates her boyfriends. He wallows in self-pity.

            5. This cannot go on forever, so eventually something bad happens.

            Okay, that’s the “nice guy.” Let’s all be honest here: that’s a pretty pathetic set of behaviors. Men trapped in this space have limited tools to work out their feelings. If they go into the locker room and talk to the “jocks,” they’ll get mocked, perhaps bullied. If they go to their other nerd friends, they’ll encounter other bitter men who feed back their resentment and self-pity. If they try to talk to other girls, they’ll at best find themselves in a new “friendzone,” since few things are less attractive than a sadsack.

            Round and round it goes.

            It’s a trap!


            These days in internet discourse, many women generalize the term “nice guy” to apply to any romantically unsuccessful dude who seems trapped in the resentment and self-pity cycle. Such men are terribly off-putting. We can choose between pitying them or just telling them to fuck off.


            It’s important to share your feelings. It is also important to work through your feelings. In general, I think “nice guys” perhaps need therapy. They need something.


            It can be hard to meet romantic partners, particularly for shy folks. People are allowed to complain about this. However, it is one thing to say, “It’s hard to meet people these days,” versus “Women/men/whoever are bad because it’s hard for me to attract them.”

            If someone says the latter, well fine, they get to have their opinion.

            How’s that working out?


            @damon, I honestly don’t have a good read on you as a person. I have no idea if you fall into the “nice guy” space. I’ll say this: I’m not going to defend every women you ever date. Some women are rotten people. Some are headcases. Many have “issues.”

            So move along. There is a difference between saying, “That woman was a terrible girlfriend” and “Women are terrible.”

            It is possible that these women are not sharing their feelings with you because they prefer to share their feelings with others. This might say something about you as a person. I don’t know. It might say something about the kind of women you attract.

            Personally, the women I’ve dated have been pretty open about their feelings. Maybe this is a lesbian thing, but I doubt it.

            Some women cannot make up their minds because life is complicated. Again, you haven’t won them over. So it goes. You have to decide if you’re getting enough from the relationship. If yes, then continue. If no, then move on.

            It can be hard to move on. Right now I’m deciding if I should “move on” from this one woman. It’s hard. (A nice thing about being poly is I can work on other relationships while I let this not-quite-great one simmer.)

            (But gawd I love her. I love her so fucking hard.)

            (Love’s a bitch man.)

            Regarding women who “just end contact,” this is probably reasonable after a one date situation. In these days of internet dating, the “let’s meet for a date” is a pretty low commitment deal. If it’s past the one date stage, then yeah, they should tell you they’re ending it. On the other hand, the person getting rejected should accept the rejection with maturity and grace.

            If you talk to women about what they encounter when they reject men, perhaps you’ll have more sympathy for the “just end contact” crowd. You might hope they would perceive that you aren’t one of “those guys,” but they did not. So it goes.

            The gender wars suck for everyone. I’m glad I’m queer.Report

            • Damon in reply to veronica d says:

              Yep, your description is pretty much the meme. And it exists. I’m always curious about the “i want a nice guy” profile and it’s clear they actually don’t. Chicks dig jerks. Even older women. I’ve treated a woman who wanted to be with me like crap and it’s like crack to them. She stalked me for over a year asking why I wouldn’t sleep with her. It WAS a nice ego boost. But christ, what is it that makes women like this?

              But I also had a “friend” who I was unsure of. Did she really mean she wanted to be friends or was this “friends now’. When a woman writes “friends first”, well? Then they get all pissy when you try to kiss them.

              Women: screwed up as much as guys. Welcome to flavortown.Report

              • Morat20 in reply to Damon says:

                And it exists. I’m always curious about the “i want a nice guy” profile and it’s clear they actually don’t. Chicks dig jerks.

                Clearly all chicks dig jerks. Every happily married couple on Earth? The guy’s a jerk. Rule of nature, man. Clearly not hyperbolic at all!

                I think their definition of ‘nice’ and yours might diverge. And in fact, I’ve met more than a few guys who call themselves “nice” who are, in fact, not nice at all.

                In fact, they were outright jerks. Which is ironic, because by being “nice” guys who were actually jerks clearly they should be getting more women than they could handle.

                Sadly for them, through no fault of their own, women conspired against them in just outrageous numbers. The mere idea that they might not, in fact, be nice guys or have some personal failing is clearly impossible.

                All that said: It’s been my experience that people who go out of their way to explain how nice they are? They’re a lot like people who go out of their way to explain how honest they are. It’s strange how they constantly have to reassure everyone about a facet of themselves like that. It’s like something is constantly contradicting them….Report

              • Damon in reply to Morat20 says:

                I never said “all”. But I do agree with you that the definition of “nice” is at play here. They claim they want a “nice guy”, not in terms of the meme, but a real nice guy; respectful, pleasant, courteous, etc., and oddly they end up sleeping with the jerks.

                As for guys who are jerks who claim they are nice, well, what do you expect from jerks?Report

              • Kimmi in reply to Damon says:

                You have seen the Oglaf comic about this, right?Report

              • David Parsons in reply to Damon says:

                I never said “all”. But I do agree with you that the definition of “nice” is at play here. They claim they want a “nice guy”, not in terms of the meme, but a real nice guy; respectful, pleasant, courteous, etc., and oddly they end up sleeping with the jerks.

                Eh, maybe. In my more promiscuous days I found that I got to sleep with MANY more MOTASes when I went out of my way to be r+p+c+etc while vigorously tamping down obsessive neediness and other stereotypical “nice guy©” behaviors. Sure, some of the people I wanted to fuck ended up sleeping with people I called jerks, but upon reflection their allegedly jerkish behavior was generally nothing but who they were interlocking their genitalia with.

                YMMV, but the traditional “nice guy©” complaint that women only sleep with jerks is not a universal truth.Report

              • veronica d in reply to Damon says:

                @damon — The thing about dysfunctional relationship patterns is, even if you get them to work, you’re still stuck in a dysfunctional relationship.

                Not that I’m criticizing. Right now I’m navigating a pretty messed up relationship with a pretty messed up girl — but she’s soooooo pretty it melts my heart.

                (The things we do for love.)

                Anyway, on the other hand I’m polyamorous, so while I navigate one trainwreck, I have other partners who are not trainwrecks.

                Let us take you at your word, that every women you get involved with likes to be treated badly. Well okay. That happened.

                How many women is this? 100? 10,000? How much of a “playa” are you?

                Or is it like two women? What kind of statistical sample are we talking about?

                (Be honest.)

                I assure you, most women do not want to be treated badly. If you’ve encountered multiple such women, this probably reflects the women you are choosing, not women in general. This tells us something about you.

                Fine. I ain’t gonna judge. My previous two g/f’s both had untreated Borderline Personality Disorder.

                Something about me attracts them. I dunno. (And trust me, untreated BPD ain’t no picnic.)

                (One of them is trainwreck girls I mentioned above. But she’s sooooooo pretty.)

                I’m getting better. I’m figuring out my own shit. My current romantic partners (which includes believe it or not a boy) seem better put together — cross your fingers, cross your toes.

                There are like 3.5 billion women on this planet. If you encounter a half-dozen who suck, well that tells us little about the next half-dozen you’ll date, unless you are stuck in a rut, unless this reflects a pattern in your life.

                Own your own shit.


                I don’t give two fucks in June if you’re “nice” or not. That’s such an empty signifier.

                Are you smart? Are you loyal? Do you have character? Do you have guts? Do you step up? Do you have courage? Do you have real kindness? Can you open your heart when it’s time to open your heart? Can you stick it out when shit gets hard?

                Oh, and what do you got that any other random swinging dick does not? What makes you special? Can you even answer that?

                “Nice” don’t mean shit. Learn that.Report

              • Damon in reply to veronica d says:

                Sadly, I’ve not done scientific research on this. Work < Sex 🙂

                My pool isn't statistically significant, but it comprises @ 25% of the total women I've dated. None of my relationships were really dysfunctional, but I see a correlation in relationships that move from casual dating to sex faster the more of a jerk you are vs slower the more of a "nice guy" you are. This isn't all just me either. Ah the stories I've heard of "he treats me bad, but when I calls for booty, I'm OMW over there."

                Are you smart? Yep
                Are you loyal? Can be
                Do you have character? Yep
                Do you have guts? Yep
                Do you step up? When needed.
                Do you have courage? Yep
                Do you have real kindness? Yep
                Can you open your heart when it’s time to open your heart? Yep
                Can you stick it out when shit gets hard? Yep

                Example of a female friend and her current "guy": But he real question is "why is she sleeping with "this guy" who ignores her, crashes at her place, eats her food, rolls into town once a month, and refuses to talk to her friends while they are all on vacation together, yet she's acts like he's crack and she's an addict?

                Yes, dysfunctional. But why? And yes, she still wants to meet a "nice guy".Report

              • Kimmi in reply to Damon says:

                Eddie Murphy had a good bit about this. It’s a lot harder for a girl to find a sexually fulfilling guy than it is vice versa. You may not LIKE the guy, but man, when you want a hit of some of those feel good hormones, you find someone who works.

                This is the opposite of “a drunk guy will put his dick in anybody.” Same motivation… let’s have some fun, not a REAL relationshipReport

              • veronica d in reply to Damon says:

                @damon — He probably fucks really well. On the other hand, will she be happy in the long term? I dunno. Her life, her choice.

                Just, don’t wait around hoping to be that “nice guy.” That’s a dead end.Report

              • Kimmi in reply to veronica d says:

                *nods* It is profitable for guys to learn how to fuck really well. Perhaps unsurprisingly, there are commercial services available that provide consulting (most sex workers will do this. You didn’t think they always had sex every time, did you?).Report

              • Damon in reply to veronica d says:

                That was my assumption as well. Then there’s always poor self esteem.Report

              • veronica d in reply to Damon says:

                @damon — Well, you should certainly judge people according to their behavior and not their words. On the other hand, life can be pretty confusing, and sexuality can be particularly confusing, so one should be patient with people as they figure out their shit.

                That said, there are plenty of people who have figured out their shit. They know what they want. They say what they want.

                Be such a person. Learn to recognize such people. This is a better way.

                Well, this works up to a point. I mostly know what I want. To some degree I can articulate it. I do okay, although much of this is recent development, and actually it all began with a very dysfunctional relationship with a very dysfunctional person, who is now outside my little poly cluster, but not outside of my heart.

                (It turns out having a totally young-and-hawt, wildly sexual tgirl totally fall in lust with me was exactly the boost I needed to get past my shyness. So yay me.)

                So we make choices. The choices I make, I’m responsible for them. My relationships — in every case I said “yes” to the person. I own this.


                I suspect that people who fixate on the unhealthy stuff are themselves being drawn into the unhealthy structures. In other words, these are inside-them problems. However, they don’t talk that way. Instead, they externalize it, talk about the outside-them stuff. Don’t do that. The problem ain’t outside-you. You can’t fix it that way.

                Well, except I kinda did that, inasmuch as it took an external stimulus to break me out of my rut.

                So anyway, be attractive. Lift weights.Report

              • Damon in reply to veronica d says:

                So anyway, be attractive. Lift weights.

                Jujitsu 🙂Report

              • veronica d in reply to Damon says:

                @damon — You can do both!

                Tho honestly, if you’re looking for raw sex appeal, judo might serve you better.

                (I’m kinda just thinking out loud here.)

                I mean, okay this gonna sound wonky, but in jits you’re doing a lot of ne-waza, which fine. It’s a kickass way to fight. But as you walk around in your day-to-day, women aren’t noticing how well you can hold guard or hold a one-knee-on position (if forget the name; haven’t done jits in ages). But they will notice how you move upright.

                Judo is gonna give you such a great base, the ability to move like a fluid. People notice this. It’s all about core.

                (I mean, they also notice shoulders and biceps.)

                Anyway, after I girled-up, I started dancing. Back in my boy days, I did a fuckton of BJJ, Muay Thai, and Hapkido. I picked up dancing really fast. I think the Muay Thai and Hapkido helped me more than the BJJ.

                (Plus living in Boston, Hapkido is the ideal “oh heck I just slipped on the ice” martial art.)Report

              • veronica d in reply to Damon says:

                Another point on the “jerk” thing, both Mark Manson and Clarisse Thorn have written about this. Their conclusion seems to be, women by and large are attracted to confidence and directness. However, these things are hard to fake, particularly for some guy growing out of nerd-hood. In fact, in many ways they can be hard to understand. Read confidence has so many layers of counter-signaling. The “fake it till you make it” thing is kind of a minefield, in the sense that obviously fake confidence is worse than no confidence at all.

                (In fact, in Impro, Johnstone talks a lot about how some of his drama students just could not get how to project high status, even when he carefully explained the needed body mechanics. For example, if he told them to keep their head still while they spoke, they just wouldn’t. He would take video and shows them what they were doing wrong.)

                That said, acting like a jerk is rather different. It’s a much easier set of behaviors to mimic, and therefore it can be a nice low-hanging-fruit for some nerdling trying to figure out how to attract women.

                Long term, it ain’t a great strategy. After all, as I said, even if you make a dysfunctional pattern work, you’re stuck with dysfunction. Plus honestly, who here really wants to act like a jerk?Report

              • Kimmi in reply to veronica d says:

                Johnstone doesn’t use negative reinforcement much, does he?Report

              • veronica d in reply to Kimmi says:

                @kimmi — Like he is overwhelmingly opposed to even a hint of negative reinforcement.

                He’s an odd duck. I certainly find him a bit Pollyannaish. On the other hand, he has a fuckton of pretty powerful insights. For me, Impro is really my go-to book when I feel “stuck” in life, either personally or creatively.

                I’d love to have taken one of his classes, but like, back in my boy days I couldn’t really “do” a drama class — well, I did, but I was so twisted up inside that I think it was wasted effort.

                (Although the fact that Brian Warner, who later changed his name to Marilyn Manson, was in my drama class is a rather delightful source of anecdote.)

                Anyway yeah.Report

              • Kimmi in reply to veronica d says:

                Hm. How was Marilyn Manson as a “not yet superstar”?Report

              • veronica d in reply to Kimmi says:

                Kinda goofy but sweet. Skinny and cute. Long blond hair. Kult tee shirts. Fake army boots. Very dynamic personality. His g/f was hawt-as-fuck (I was so jelly).

                In class, the dude had charisma. When he got going, he just fucking lit up. I remember our “final project” monologue. I stammered around, completely lost. He fucking ripped. There was a piano just sitting in the performance room, like not for our class, and like — I’m 100% this was impromptu — during the “big tension” moment of his thing, he went and BANGED on the piano keys.

                It was fucking intense.

                I’m not surprised he hit superstar status. Dude had something.Report

              • Pillsy in reply to Damon says:

                She stalked me for over a year asking why I wouldn’t sleep with her.

                She sounds really awesome and in no way annoying or creepy. I can’t imagine why anyone would think that behaviors that attract women like her might not be advisable.Report

              • Damon in reply to Pillsy says:

                Oh, it was annoying. If she’d actually been attractive to me, I’d probably have slept with her, but she was also geographically undesirable.Report

              • veronica d in reply to Pillsy says:

                @pillsy — We’re social animals. As such, most of us crave status. Among the various forms of status, sexual desirability is notably powerful.

                It feels really great to be wanted. When someone wants you, but you don’t want them back, that’s a big dose of social power. Social power is intoxicating, which is why people compete so hard to acquire markers of status.

                (We can analyze this from a gendered perspective. In fact, there is much that feminists can say about how this plays out. That said, I think the core psychology is cross-gendered. Status is status. Humans are humans. I suspect @damon will enjoy social validation in the same ways I do.)

                Anyway, so it goes. We love being desired — but up to a point, past which it gets creepy and scary.


                All this said, status games can be really dysfunctional. According to Johnstone (in Impro), we can be “friends” with someone not because we abandon status play, which is behaviorally impossible, but instead when we engage with status “playfully.” According to Carse (in Finite and Infinite Games), “infinite players” will engage in “finite play,” but they will do so “unseriously.” They will not try to “win”. Instead, they will seek to “touch” from their “center,” to use finite play as a tool within a bigger, more rewarding game.

                These men are saying similar things.

                I don’t want people to want me in a way that causes them harm. I cannot always control this. I cannot undo psychological trauma, nor the broken hellscape of our sexual culture.

                But I can try to be a positive force.

                It’s hard sometimes. I got my own damage.Report

              • Damon in reply to veronica d says:

                ” I suspect @Damon will enjoy social validation in the same ways I do”

                Yep. I will admit I enjoyed tormenting with her. I was demanding gold eagles or platinum eagle coins for driving up and having sex with her. At some point it just became what outrageous thing could I throw out there and would she agree. Fortunately, she found another object for her obsession and I stopped tormenting her because, I didn’t like being THAT much of an ass.Report

              • veronica d in reply to Damon says:

                @damon — Yeah honestly, try to be a better person next time.

                On the other hand, if the sex was good, well I dunno. Were you honest? If she knows the score and still makes the choice — well life is sure complex.

                Basically this would make you a sex worker, tho. I don’t judge.Report

              • Damon in reply to veronica d says:

                Just to be clear…there was very little chance I’d agree to do anything with her. For me it was an exercise in how outrageous I could be and see what her reaction was. Given that she’d start negotiating with me, she’d willing have paid, only the price was at issue. But I came to feel guilty about it and stopped because, all in all, I am a nice guy. I did tell all my friends I had a “stalker” though 🙂Report

              • veronica d in reply to Damon says:

                Ah. Fair enough.Report

              • Pillsy in reply to veronica d says:

                “Someone wants something from me which I can’t give them,” is something I find really… frustrating and aggravating, not validating. Even if they aren’t being creepy about it.

                I had a similar experience to @damon in my youth.

                Maybe the differences were key–on the one hand I’d put her in the top “hotness” quintile, but on the other hand I didn’t even know she was into me until she revealed the creepiness. I’d been a jerk ’cause I just plain didn’t like her.

                I metaphorically ran screaming.Report

      • veronica d in reply to LeeEsq says:

        I’ll pluck out a few phrases:

        …making fun of men who occasional vent or complain about their lack of romantic or sexual success as “nice guys”…

        Personally, I’m not always happy about the nature of “nice guy” discourse. Women often get this stuff wrong. But then again, we’re human beings, imperfect. Honestly, I haven’t seen women slag “nice guys” any worse than the jocks slag “betas” or “gammas,” certainly no worse than the jocks slagged me back in my boy days. Why should you hold women to higher standards than other men?

        That said, I have a few male friends over on Tumblr who sometimes talk about their difficulties with romance, and as far as I can see they don’t get hit with the “nice guy” stuff. They certainly do not from me. Why?

        Cuz they don’t blame women. They instead talk about their own social flaws.

        Over the past few years I’ve had much relationship difficulty. You know whose fault it is?


        So there you go.

        Listen to a “nice guy” complain about his romantic failure. Who will he blame?


        The pattern is pretty clear. Even right now you’re blaming women for the problems of men. For example, let us examine the next phrase:

        …not providing a means for male emotional bonding by going after all male spaces or looking at all male gatherings as suspect.

        Yep, it’s the fault of women that you fuckers can’t bond. Right. Sure. Our fault. Not yours. Not at all.

        Dig deeper. Eventually you’ll reach the pit of perfect despair and land on [nsfw].

        Let me ask the one big question: how’s this working out for you?Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to veronica d says:

      I think the tell here is the mention of punk rock culture. I don’t know what the guy’s socio-economic background is but punk rock culture seems to be one that views the mosh pit and physical force as a good.Report

      • veronica d in reply to Saul Degraw says:

        @saul-degraw — He was first-generation middle-class. And this was the 80’s, so we didn’t call it “moshing” back then, but yeah, it was the same idea. But punk is one avenue into this space. I had another friend at the time who got huge into weight lifting and hanging with some tough “jock types.” They liked to get in fights on the weekend. One night they beat a kid to death and all went to prison. So, they weren’t punks, just bored suburban dipshits.

        A whole lot of men think Walter White is the hero. You get that, right? These ideas are not particular to class or musical tastes.


        As an aside, I was “moshing” last night at the Against Me show. It was fun.

        I assure you, at no point was I acting “macho.”Report

    • j r in reply to veronica d says:

      It is hard for men to form close bonds with other men, ones that allow a full range of emotional expression.

      I am going to stay out of the larger conversation between you and Lee, but I have to call BS on this. I have a group of very close friends, the newest of which I met twenty-three years ago. As far as I am concerned, these people are my family. I grew up with them. Every time we see each other we greet with a hug, sometimes a kiss. And I am by no means an outlier. Heck, I see the same thing among the guys that I was in the Army with. You want to see the full range of emotional expression? Spend some time in a combat zone with your fellow soldiers.

      I’ve seen a lot of these ‘men don’t have real/close friendships’ content pieces recently and what they tend to have in common is a lot of anecdote an very little empirical backup. And when they do site evidence, that evidence tends to be either light and/or backed up with circular models and theories.

      One of the problems is that there tends to be a certain distance in male friendships that don’t exist in female friendships. But, so what? I like distance. It doesn’t mean that I love my friends any less than I do.Report

      • veronica d in reply to j r says:

        @j-r — I know a fair number of men who complain about this, their inability to bond closely with other men. Likewise, there are a number of studies that show that older men often find themselves very isolated, and this contributes to suicide and lower lifespans.

        I’ll admit that social science can be pretty sketchy sometimes, but you’re hardly answering science with science. After all, your anecdotes are — well — anecdotes.

        (Heh. Trying to search for “male isolation” on Google scholar is, well, amusing. Evidently we can learn much about male prairie voles.)

        Anyway, this Australian paper comes up a lot:

        One point to keep in mind, the men I am talking about often hunger for intimacy. Likewise, they are often romantically unsuccessful. Therefore, men with romantic partners are going to relate very differently to this issue than the men I am talking about.Report

        • veronica d in reply to veronica d says:

          Another thing to keep in mind, even if like 80% of men do okay on this count, that would leave 20% who do not.

          Like, obviously I’m pulling these numbers of out my ass, but consider, that day on the subway, when that wackjob old white guy was harassing that brown-skinned not-actually-muslim pair, and then later threatening me, he was just one guy on a subway car with dozens of men. But that was all it took, one angry white man, clearly mindfucked by right-wing media.

          It only takes a small number trapped in these spaces to really fuck up the social fabric.

          How many Walter White wannabes do you want to encounter in the bowling alley parking lot? I’d prefer zero.

          (And dammit whenever I see some guy walking around wearing that stupid hat — OMFG why not just advertise you’re a complete dickpimple.)

          I don’t know any real numbers on how many women feel these kinds of isolation compared to men. That said, women seem to deal with it differently.Report

  3. Kolohe says:

    Substitute “white men” for “the Arab Street” (or whatever you want to call it*) in the excerpt. Isn’t the conventional wisdom that the same dynamic was the prime mover behind everyone from the perpatrators of 9/11 to Ahmad Khan Rahami to do what they are accused of doing?

    *Ahmad Khan Rahami is not Arab.Report

  4. Damon says:

    Things are a lot different in places in the west compared to Georgia. Arizona is an open carry state and everyone pretty much is cool, cause it’s been that way for a while. Lots of stores have “no gun” signs and gun folk stay away preferring not to support a store that doesn’t want their business. You routinely see linemen, and service types wearing side arms. Deal. All good.

    This guy is so obviously screwed up he’s lashing out… the VAST majority of guys who own 2K USD rifles…..Right. Please. The fact that he dropped that kind of cash while up to his ass is debt is a further clue. He wasn’t even demonstration (or it was reported that he wasn’t) proper muzzle/weapon control. Not sure if that’s an accurate portrayal. We are talking about the Washington Post here.

    But given the bent of the Gin and Taco guy, and the WP, this isn’t a surprise.Report

    • Kimmi in reply to Damon says:

      PA is an open carry state (this is mostly so rifles carried in cars aren’t an issue for hunters). Never seen a store say “no guns here.”
      Only time I’ve ever seen someone openly carrying and been scared was seeing a poacher on park land.

      Most places we don’t have enough wildlife for people to NEED a gun for self defense. (Of course, there is the “local militia” in the Hill District, where someone has a posse of people opencarrying to “discourage drug dealers”)Report

      • Damon in reply to Kimmi says:

        You see “no gun” stores in AZ quite a bit. Mainly in the artzy fartzy areas where the more left leaning folks are. I’ve not been to Sedona in a while but expect I’d see them there. Also, in Jerome, where I saw them. And that’s cool. I SUPPORT that. Your store, your rules. AZ also has the benefit of being a no license open carry/concealed carry state so anyone you run into on the street might just be packing.Report

        • Kolohe in reply to Damon says:

          I wouldn’t want to carry a gun in Jerome because it could affect my weight distribution, throw me off balance, and I’d fall off the cliff.Report

          • Damon in reply to Kolohe says:

            It’s not THAT bad Kolohe. Unless your carry weapon is a SAW or such. Stay away from the edges. 🙂Report

            • j r in reply to Damon says:

              I literally almost fell of a cliff once while carrying a SAW. Close enough that I felt that sick feeling in my stomach and was bracing myself for the fall, but managed to get my balance back at the last moment. It wasn’t high enough to kill me, but it would have likely broken a few things.Report